[MAXX]

My business partner and I went to the Home Show in town, to set up a very small display with business cards in my friends booth. (he's a new log home builder) So we put that in and started checking out all the display booths for different home stuff, landscape suppliers, other landscapers etc. We ended up talking to quite a few people and gave out a few cards. We started talking to a guy who builds new high end custom homes and low and behold, he finds out we're landscapers and offers us to bid on the landscape install of a brand new 85 suite motel on a couple acres of greenspace! lol. He is sending the site plan CAD within the next few days for us to make a bid. From what I understand, its already laid out with tree species, tree sizes, plant species and size, location etc. and graded. He just wants the installs and finishing. I guess we may be jumping in with both feet after all lol . After that conversation, he adds that his new home (looked more like an estate to me) is being finished early spring and he may use us for that as well-hinging on how the motel goes.To make things weirder, we were in one of the "Big Landscapes Guys" display after that, admiring their drawings. He asks us if we're landscapers after a few minutes of chat and wants to talk to both of us (if interested) about possibly being crew leaders/project management. lmao. Strange but good night. I may need some advice on the motel bid...I'll keep you guys posted if he sends the plans to me.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...Last week we went to a few places to peruse outdoor living accessories ( furniture,bbqs etc) and when the one store owner found out we were landscapers he struck a deal with us to make a small landscape with a patio area in front of his store which is in a high traffic area and its a higher end shop. We can put our name on it with a sign or rock etching. If it turns out well, which it will, he will recommend us to his customers if they are looking for landscaping. Suhweet!

[AZTLANLC]

It sure sounds like a weird day

[agla]

Take this for how it is offered. One of the reasons people read these message boards is to help them avoid mistakes other people have made so they don't make the same ones.

Does this situation sound familiar, anyone?

Be careful.

Maybe this is not the case, but it has a familiar ring to it. There are glaring red flags to both of these offers.

First you mentioned that you do not have a portfolio and you are just getting started in business. That means that these potential clients who never met you, or anyone to recommmend you, are selecting you for a reason other than your proven abilities. Does it make sense that a developer of hotels or an owner of an outdoor living accessory store would not know any established and reputable landscape companies? You have to ask yourself why they would they select a new company unknown to them. Do you think they like going around and helping out people who are getting started, or that they meet people one time and and go on instinct?

Second, you are being offered a future benefit which hinges on you getting the job and making the client happy in both cases. This is a very common ploy by developers who target new companies to exploit. The reason is that they want the contractor to value getting the job more than getting paid for the job. Can you think of another reason why they would do that?

Newer companies, especially landscape companies, also tend not to have their ducks in a row when it comes to contract writing. The developer knows that more than anyone. Newer companies also don't have cash and credit which can empower someone who can control your cash flow. That combination can get them a lot of extras by holding back money until you do things that are not clearly defined in the contract. You can't afford wait them out, so you'll do it. ... unless they are just nice guys looking to help out a new company instead of hiring one that is refered or well known to them.

Think with your head and not with your heart as you move forward with these guys. No one ever became a big developer by helping people out in my neighborhood.

[johnkeegan]

Listen to Agla. This doesn't pass the "smell test."

[Fine Edge]

Been there, done that. Sorry to break your bubble, Maxx, but too many good things in a day just don't happen like that to newly started companies.

[Metzger]

Developers/Builders love to use landscapers as their personal "banks". They are always the slowest at paying; proceed with caution and have an iron-clad contract signed with as much down from the client as is legal in your state. We require 50% down before we will put any client on our schedule...and I tell every client that when I present the design and bid.

[synner]

Some excellent points have been raised here. We too learned the hard way that builders who pay in 120 days think they're doing you a favour. I'd be careful.

[MAXX]

Excellent feedback guys!!! Wise words noted and appreciated. I welcome the advice, thats why I started this thread. Please dont think I am all starry eyed about this. I have reservations and concerns as well. The hotel gig is just a bid opportunity so far. I will probably bid higher than anyone else to ensure a cushion and will definately be requiring 50% at signing or no deal. The contract will be very clear, consise and thorough to say the least. The developer has no Idea that my company is new and I am not new. I am just new to owning/operating. We really didnt expect to start off with a commercial job, especially of this scale, but I dont want to turn a possible good opportunity/profit and reference down. Again I will bid high. I dont have the final site plans yet but the artists concept from top down. About 155 trees, 6 landscaped islands amongst 200 parking spots, a 25 meter raised landscape garden with some brickwork paths and a couple 50 meter landscaped perimeter plantings. Possible sodding. If I bid on this job it will be a well defined contract thats high. I really dont think I'll get the deal anyways. As for the little landscape deal...I get to advertise with the truck in full view in a high traffic area while working... plus a sign or laser etched rock etc, in the front of the project to be seen by everyone visiting that store..should be a good thing no?

Anybody care to throw a rough ballpark estimate out (i know the details are vague...I have never done any commercial work like this, just residential...but try anyways lol) and I'll post my tentative bid total when I figure it all out to compare?

[Stonehenge]

It'd be pretty tough to estimate the project based on that info - 155 ash whips would be priced differently than 155 6" maples.

So long as you go into this with open eyes, that either they are looking to use your bid as leverage against another, get the work for next to nothing, or just to get an idea of how much something would cost (tire kicking), then you should be OK.

Good luck!

[agla]

Remember to put in the line that anything not specifically listed in the contract is an extra and will be billed as such. Also consider to put in expected conditions as your beginning point - such as rough graded to within 6" of final grade. It is very easy to drop your guard and price for expected conditions only to find a whole lot of work and material between those two conditions.

This may be a good time to consult with someone about contract writing. Perhaps an attorney or trusted business person.

[MAXX]

lol...so far no return email on the detailed cad.

[agla]

I went over a plan with a pretty good sized landscape contractor today. Afterward, we hung out and talked about different things for over an hour. One of the subjects that came up was commercial install work. I asked if he sees a lot of competition in it.

He said that regardless of how many companies are bidding on good sized commercial work, there is usually just two or three other companies that are true competition in that they are just as likely to get the job as he is. The reason he gave was very simple. He has the equipment and man power to quickly have 10 to 20 guys on site, organized, and productive on very short notice. He said the GCs won't bother with anyone who does not have that capability. He went further to say that if you need to get 10-20 guys in there, you better have the GC convinced that you have twice as many working for you at the same time in other places. It is all about getting called in to get lots done in very short windows of time. That really limits the competition.

He can tell by looking at the size and scope of work, whether there is a greater possibility that smaller companies are capable of getting the job done and will drive the bidding prices down. He'll pass on the bid because he knows it will be a waste of time because he'll either be over the other bids or won't make any money if he gets it.

Interestingly enough, he talked about other jobs where he knew he would be amongst the lesser qualified.

[MAXX]

Thanks again AGLA. Much appreciated. I know I am out of my league a ways with this, but I will take a good hard look at it just the same because i want to see what my estimate is like compared to someone else. Even if I get invited to bid I will probably pass or maybe add $10-15k extra on top lol. If I get the missing layer I will let you know. Thanks again for you advice.