[BrandonRud]

Hello everyone, I have just joined this site and have been learning a TON so far. I am absolutly passionate about plants and love to work with space, but Im still trying to figure out how to charge for it all.

My first gig was a full out redo of a back garden in Venice Beach California. I did the design for $600, and then charged $20/h to oversee the installation. This seemed to work well becuase I could oversee my design and had complete control of every detail, which is very important to me. The only drawback was that @ $20/h I had to be there 40 hours a week to make a living, which left no time for other projects. I want to set up a business structure that allows me to design and oversee multiple projects at once. So I have been soliciting clients around the neighborhood and offering my "design consultation" for free hoping that they accept my proposal which includes a design fee. So far this has included an inital visit to the site, a concept/ design (which often includes sketches and drawings) and a budget which then covers my time spent thus far in the process. Fine and great, love the gig so far, BUT, this has brought about numerous issues. 1) I am offering ideas for free and risking the client just taking them and finding mr cheap contractor to do it. 2) I am doing a bunch of work with no real garuntee of a gig. 3) I feel like Im not putting any real value on my concepts and ideas. So where do I go from here? Ive only done one full garden (which turned out amazing) I am very confident in my design work and feel like I am being ripped off a bit. Should I just charge a higher hourly rate? Even though my design experiecne is in other mediums? I am just concerned that I will scare off clients.

Are there any other landscape designers out there who have experienced this before? I am not a licenced LA or a contractor, so design is my cash crop. How do I sell my garden design with a relativly small portfolio of work? Do you think I should exhibit my other sculpture and design work to potential clients? I guess this is a real question of idenity and branding, what am I selling? It seems clear, design, but most people dont seem to value good design, they just want it to look nice and be done as cheap as possible.

Thanks for reading and letting me rant!

check out my work!! the second picture down is the garden I just finished!

http://www.brandonrud.com

[agla]

The first thing that you have to understand is that the whole thing works on how much value people place in having YOU design their gardens. Then you need to find a way to affect that. Finally you need to know how to get yourself in front of more people that are predisposed to be placing a value on any landscape design rather than blindly soliciting your neighborhood.

The biggest thing of all is that you are measured against others who are looking to do the same work and there are a lot of people out there doing it. When everything else is the same, the first advantage goes to those who also have a proven ability to get the job built. But not all is going to be the same in your case because you are new to horticulture, to landscape design, to landscape construction, to project management, and to selling these services. It is going to be very hard for you to out sell any other person doing this work without significant experience in any of it. Worse yet, it only takes one person to be ahead of you for you to get shut out of a job.

I think you will get farther along more quickly if you get a few years experience working for others. Designing pretty gardens is such a small part of what it takes to make a living as a landscape designer.

[Stonehenge]

Hi Brandon,

Yeah, it sounds like $20/hour in CA would be hard to earn a living from.

I didn't read anything about where your experience is coming from - if you're relatively new at design (lots of non-LA folks who have been designing scapes for decades), you might have a difficult time selling your design services when there's no portfolio or years of experience (or hort degree or something) to back you up.

With that being said, there's nothing that could prevent you from taking the Famous Amos route, succeeding despite not having a single advantage. IMHO, the way you would have a shot at making that work would be to build yourself a bigger portfolio of amazing work for next to nothing (like you're doing now), to develop your identity in the market.

If you're overseeing the installation, then you are really more of a GC than simply a designer.

How to build a successful business based on design when it appears at first blush that there isn't business or landscape design experience behind you might be beyond the scope of this thread - so I might suggest that you follow Agla's advice.

Can what you want to do be done? Maybe. But there are plenty of folks who have many more advantages than you and still fight tooth and nail to earn their living. That's all I'm saying.

[BrandonRud]

Thank you both for your imput, I appreciate the advice. This has been a great forum to become clear about what Im doing.

I actually have some experice in design, over 8 years designing for theater and events. I am very confident in my design skills, and very skilled at developing a design, including close dialogue with the client, drafting, sketching, research, contracting vendors, and final managment of the project. I have a BFA in design from CalArts and a degree in restaurant managment from the Restaurant School in Philadelphia. I have done some sculpture in my career and have worked with all types of materials. I have also been an active gardener since the age of 2.

I could probley benifit from working for someone else, and that is certainly something to consider. Although I am more interested in starting my own firm. I feel like I have the skill set and the vision to do it, I just need some business advice in this particular field. I need some advice about what to charge, how to charge, and general protocol about what clients expect from landscape designers regarding money. Maybe there are some good books out there that outline this? Some Landscape design business textbooks?

Again, thank you for taking the time to reply to my thread, its invaluble information! Are there any other LA based designers, architects, contractors here?

thanks again,

Brandon

[Stonehenge]

So it still sounds to me like you actually want to be a GC, not just a designer. Ootherwise, once the pencil or puck is set down, you'd be washing your hands of the plan.

There are many GC's in my area whose only tool is a cellphone. Don't need trucks and power tools to be a GC.

That you're an avid gardener helps - I was concerned that you didn't know Coleus from Quercus, and your clients would pay the ultimate price.

As for how to charge and how much to charge, some of your instincts are already there - you're doing a lot of work, possibly for nothing, when designing on spec. However, given your very small portfolio of work, you might just have to suck that up for awhile until you've built a portfolio and reputation.

I'm sure Frank Lloyd Wright couldn't charge top dollar straight out of college - he built a reputation over time.

So the trick for now will be for you to determine when you've got the client hooked and should begin charging for your work. Maybe after presentation of the first design when they ask for revisions. Maybe you don't turn the plan over until they pay for it, getting them committed to you, which would hopefully mean they opt in for the actual construction.

As for how much to charge - I always like telling folks to work backwards. Start at where you want to end up and go back from there. You want to make $X. Figure out your costs ($Y). Then figure out what margins you need on a reasonable volume of work so that Volume of Work - COGS - Y = X. Simple formula, and a hundred different ways to get there.

Good luck.

[BrandonRud]

Frank Lloyd Wright is my hero! I almost went to Tallahassean West.

Stonehenge, thanks for the formula, it makes sense. I appreciate the site you've put together, I've learned so much by reading some of the past blog entries. I have been up till 2 am every night reading this site, I should really sleep.

thanks again

Brandon

[BrandonRud]

Agla thank you for the keen insight, I do need to promote myself as a higher-end designer and get myself in front of more people that place value on good design, which tend to be the more affluent popoulation. In Log Angeles its not hard to spot money, although sometimes its a hoaks!

Heres a question,, how does one really make themselves valuble as a general contractor in a market that seems to be full of people acting as their own general contractors. Is their another term in the biz, like coordinator? Landscape General Contractor? But I think that term in California means I am a licenced contractor, which Im not, and not interested in working four years with one to get that title. I know the high-end clients are out there, but I think I need to build up more experience before I really put myself in front of those people. Although I will not hold myself back if the opportunity arises.

[agla]

Brandon,

The toughest thing about the landscape design business is that it is a free for all. The best thing about it is that it is a free for all. In other words there are no standards.

There are no standards for who can be a landscape designer, how much they charge, what they deliver for a product, or anything. There is also no standards on the client's side, what they are willing to pay, what is the background of their designer, what services they expect of their designer, ... The two standard that is there from the client's perspective is that they feel you know what they think you ought to know to do their work and they perceive that you bring a lot more value into the outcome of the project than what it will cost to have you involved.

Until clients are seeking you rather than you seeking clients, you can not make much more than wages for your time. The single biggest obstacle is getting work to come to you. Design/build landscape companies are very well placed in the market for getting a stream of inquiries simply because they are recognized as the "makers" of the landscapes that the client likes and were very visible through well marked trucks at the time of construction, and the trucks are seen repeatedly around town which reminds them each time of the work they did. Secondly, the client knows that the job can go from start to finish with one contact. The latter is a much bigger deal than you might think. When all else is equal, the designer who works for the design/build is going to get the job every time.

The thing that will elevate you most and fastest in the market is if you seek out a successful design/build company that is doing somewhat similar work that you want to do and try to work for them for a couple of years. That will get you in the loop and teach you much more about managing a landscape site than doing backyards in your neighborhood. Whether you can even land such a job is going to tell you more about where you are as well. The learning that you'll get is much more about how the business works than how to design. It will get you into the network of suppliers and work sources. It will fill your portfolio with built work of your designs and tie the recognition of the company you worked for to you.

I call that the moving sideways strategy vs. the climbing the ladder strategy which you and so many others typically try to do. After a few years of working for someone else, you are essentially in their market and you have a much better shot at remaining in it when you go on your own. There is a lot less competition there. By starting from scratch, you have the competition of every design/build and every aspiring landscape designer to compete with in a saturated market.

The typical thing that happens is you start out with one or two good opportunities of doing work for friends or others that have faith in your potential and trust you as an individual. After that, it is real life. Typically, you'll wind up taking on smaller jobs that you can build yourself in order to keep the money coming in. Before you know it, ten years passes and you are still working out of a pickup truck. I'm not saying this is your destiny, but it is the most common image of an independent landscape designer.

Your (or my) ability to design is the last skill set you get to apply of all the skill sets needed to make a living as a designer.

Think like the client:
1. where do I look for a landscape designer?
2. what has this person done vs. what the other three I met?
3. what will this person do to get my job complete vs. the others?
4. why is this person better for me than the others?