[MVFD]

Hello, Im new to this site and to the landscaping world.

Im 18 and Ive finished school since January 2006. Since then Ive been working fulltime running excavator. The company I work for has Cat 312BL, Bobcat S160, Komatso PC30. I have been running all three since febuary and Im the only operator he has so far. (sorry for the life story but Im just including some of my history) I do everything from Service hook up's, lot preping, boulder walls, rock and motar walls, foundations, back filling, and of coarse spreading top soil for sod.

I have been thinking about starting a small part time sod laying company. I have forsure 1 other guy willing to help me out and possibly another, I havnt talked to him yet. This will be for awhile a weekend type thing to make a little extra money.

Im wondering if someone or even a few of you can offer me som advice and information on this.

I have the following for questions

- What tools will I need?
- What would a fair hourly rate be to charge out?
- Hourly wage for my workers?
- How to calculate my costs and give a final bill?
- How I should go about estimating?
- How much should I be able to lay in 1 hour?
- Am I exspected to spread the top soil?or
should that already be done before I get there?

Any other tips/info you can help me with would be much appreciated. feel free to say anything you think I may have missed, because im sure there is more. Thanks in advance



Chad. N. Higgins

[HardDaysKnight]

Since January you have learned to operate some machinery and do some dry stack and masonry walls. Now you are ready to be a sod laying company?

Laying sod is not rocket science. How could you survive
doing just that? I would strongly suggest to stay with the outfit you are employed with and be as stellar an employee as you can. Ask questions and steal information with your eyes and ears.
What I am saying is to wait a year or 2 before venturing out.
I respect your vision of being in business...I question your aspirations and especially your timing.
Just thinking about your well being and just my opinion.
Whatever you decide, we are here. Good Luck to you and welcome , Johnny

[MVFD]

I would not be quitting my current job. I plan on staying with them for as long as possible.

My Idea is to do a job here and there on weekends laying sod. I have a total of 4 guys right now (family) that would be willing to help. its only to make a bit of extra cash, and slowly build something up.

I have laid sod before when my parents have built and sold houses. Your right it is not rocket science. I want to start out doing something small that is easily managable for a saturday possibly sunday. I would like to expand in the future to a full out landscaping company and maybe one day own my own excavating company.

I plan on keeping it in the family for awhile intill I can expand and get bigger. The money it makes will go directly back in to the company and I will still have my current place of employment.

Im learning lots and taking it all in. I already have the job of managing all of the excavating for his company, seting up jobs, getting jobs, bringing in other outfits for drilling and blasting, calling for trucks, dump sites etc.

I appreciate your concern. I should have made myself more clear that I would be staying with my current employer and this would be a side thing. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Stuck in NH]

I have a total of 4 guys right now (family)

No.
No.
Run from this idea

Business + Family = failed business + people in family won't speak to each other.

Please spend a few years in (any) business & work your OWN way up from there.

IMHO the fastest way to fail is to employ friends or family. Your friends will no longer be "friends" after you have to make some hard decisions.

[Dale Wiley]

So I would assume that you will be paying workmens comp and all appropriate witholding taxes on these "helpers" ??

I assume you will have commercial contracting liability to protect your customers and their property ??

And of course you will be reporting the income and paying income taxes on it ??

And you will have all the proper license your state may require ??

And of course you current employer is OK with you doing "side" work on the weekends and not taking business from your employer ??

If you can answer yes to all the above questions then by all means go for it.

But if not, be prepared to accept what comes your way if another landscape company takes offense to what your doing and utilizes the law to make sure you are playing on a level field, and that your current employer does not take ofense and fire you.

[GLAN]

Thanks Dale.........

My thoughts exactly.....


No offense to MVFD.........

But how many new start ups are out there as it is? Operating illegaly?

At another forum......the story seems to be that.......Oh, only part time........just to make a little extra cash.

There are lots of other opportunities.........like Window cleaning, power washing, painting, and with so many WalMarts around what's wrong with a part time job there?

Maybe it's just me and my location........and also just me.......

But I am getting tired and fed up with forums and the deluge of wanna be's treading all over what I chose as a profession full time.

[TrickyDick]

Damn you guys are tough! I agree with everything Dale said and Stuck in NH too but assuming you are planning to actually start a legal business and run it part time for a while then go for it. Do your research, take your time, learn what you're doing before you do it. It would be a good idea to get more experience with this stuff working for someone else first. You're obviously motivated and hard working and if you're smart too you'll do okay. As far as all your questions...those things are different for everybody and every location. You should buy some books or take a business class or something to at least learn the basics and come up with a plan.

That said...if you are looking to do uninsured, unlicensed cash jobs on the weekends you're not going to get much help from people who have decided to make careers of this. There are way too many people doing that and it damages the integrity of the whole industry.

Glan I hear what you're saying but there are a lot of pros in this business who started out as wannabes. They don't all do it the wrong way.

[Dale Wiley]

But how many new start ups are out there as it is? Operating illegaly?

We are exiting the residential landscape installation market and concentrating on our sports field work. I am going to get in there before some one else does. The other legitimate company in my area is also hurting, and opening a bark and supply yard to at least get money from the bums if he can't get any work.

We have not been in the commercial install and will not go there either. There simply is not any way to make money in our market in those segments anymore.

We have a fairly well established client base that we get a fair amount of recurring work from, but the new jobs are not coming. There are so many new contractors who are working for wages, no insurances, WC etc, no licenses.

I called our state agency this morning to burn another scab, but they told me they probably won't get to them as there are not enough inspectors....

And its not about how we started out, it's about how we do business today. You turn your head and ignore these guys and they will eat your lunch, dinner and retirement before you know it.

I am not in business to help newbies out by ignoring their illegal acts, I am in business to provide for my family/ employees and our future.

[MVFD]

I respect everything in the above that has been said.

I understand your concern of another company starting up, that comes as a threat to take away your business.

I do notice that there has been alot of assumptions.
I do plan to claim all the taxes. Being as Im having help from family such as my Dad, My brother inlaw and his two younger brothers who all have full time jobs ARE NOT exspecting to be paid in anyways. they are doing this all as a leg up for me to get a start on it. The money made will be put directly back in to the business so I wont make extra cash to pocket right away. But my taxes will be done properly.

My Mom is a Head manager at a bank, so the number crunching is done for me already. She will take care of doing the taxes each year.

My dad is a full time local cement mix driver ready for retirement. that is willing to help me get going in life to succeed and is in know way exspecting money back from me.

My brother in law who I just helped with his part time fire wood business will be helping me that same way I helped him to get his company going. No money will be transfered to either of us. we will only be trading our help back and fourth.

His two brothers working full time, Also who help him with his business for no money at all want to do the same thing for me to get this going.

The WCB topic. I know all about WCB and with family. we have already talked about this and as my idea to bring it in, the all agreed that to get it started it would be best if we hold off on it intill I start to hire employees when I get to the stage down the road.

The work load around here has sky rocketed, with hundreds of house going up everyday there are many lawns needing to be done. I have looked and looked and looked and there is no other company/business around here just laying sod. The landscaping companies around here are charging almost double to lay the Sod as well. We also dont have that many landscaping businesses around. for the whole area we may have about 13 medium sized companies. and a few small independant people.

The market is perfect for right now and the next couple of years.
And with the over load of lawns/yards, there are not enough people/companies to get it all done. Who will I be hurting to do 2 or 3 lawns on a saturday? when they are behind 1000's of lawns?

I know that Im very young to even think about this, but with the help and support I have from my family, and the market right now, why not?

Im not planning on jumping in to this tomorrow. I plan on researching, and I will have plenty of lawn to practice on with another round of house my parents have built now needing the landscaping and lawn finished.

My first few lawns will be to test the market out and see if its worth taking it from there.

I also understand the point of Family= Failed business. We live 10 minutes away from a family that has had so many law suits in the past 10 years its almost unbelieveable. then again they all wanted a certain share in the company.

My mom and dad dont want a thing back. They have succeed in life and have their own contracting company and their full time jobs. They want to see me succeed and will support me.

My Brother in law, is the same. In our family money owing to each other has never been a problem. We help each other to what ever is needed. thats the way we are.

Ive realised this was a mistake to ask for help and advice, all I got from the majority was slashed and ridiculed. Thanks to the few that supported me.


If there is any thing else I can clear up for you Please ask and I will.

I come from a business oriented family, as well I work for a guy who built his company from nothing. and he has given me a vast amount of knowledge on running a copmpany and how things need to be done. Im smart with money, I got striaight A's in school, and have all the motovation one person can need. My goals in life are to succeed and thats what I plan to do.

Thanks for the help!

[start2finish]

looks like everyone is as excited with 2006 as we are. ILLEGAL, NO OVERHEAD FROM INSURANCE AND LICENSES, unfair competition. All our costs have risen significantly and our market is paying less for services. And most people don't care if the company is a part-tiem hobby or not. they just want a cheap price. How do we fix this.

[familyguy]

The kid has a strong point.

You did all assume quite a bit.

We usually charge $1 per square foot of sod laid. The includes the hand raking but not the hard scaping. The materials where we are run about $.32 square foot delivered (depending on the quantity).

You might want to print a sheet up for local landscape contractors to entice them into using you as a subcontractor.

Final bit of advice, check with an insurance agent and see if there are liability issues or any workmens comp issues with free workers... lucky bastard.... and make sure you can't get in trouble if someone gets hurt. It is probly as simple as having them sign a release form.

Good luck. And please don't make me a fool by doing this in a manner other than a professional one. I would regret having given my advice and support.

[Dale Wiley]

Ive realised this was a mistake to ask for help and advice, all I got from the majority was slashed and ridiculed.

No... what you got was real world advice. There was no ridicule... there never will be on here. You will get good solid, uncensored business advice.

Family friends, paid or un paid, you have to have w/c insurance. You have to have contracting liability to protect your clients.

It is probly as simple as having them sign a release form.

Most releases are not worth the paper they are written on. It is still a litigiously (sp??)matter, release or no release.

I have looked and looked and looked and there is no other company/business around here just laying sod.

I wonder why... probably because you cannot make a living and legitimate business "just" laying sod. If there was, another company would have started that model. It would be a volume production business and not diversified enough to hold up under an economic slowdown, which trust me, will come in the next 5 years.

The landscaping companies around here are charging almost double to lay the Sod as well.

Again.. I wonder why ??? Because that is what it takes to run a business... if you gain your market share strictly on a price point basis, you find it hard to retain that business when you actually have to pay employees, and you will find that your rates, "may have to charge double" what you are now.

Who will I be hurting to do 2 or 3 lawns on a saturday?

Absolutely no one. But be prepared to deal with what ever happens if you do things that go against normal business practices and laws, and a legitimate landscape business calls you out on it.

and make sure you can't get in trouble if someone gets hurt.

He probably won't if he has minimal assets, but the dirt bag lawyers will go after the home owner, the home owners dog, his cat, his uncle, his uncles cat, if they think he can get money for an injury on the property they are working on.

I think it is great that you have this ambition at such a young age. No many in your age do, so I commend that. I was very similar at the same age. But I am merely making you aware of what could happen in the scenario you describe.

If you came into my market, and were doing some of the things you have described, I would hammer you to every regulatory agency I could.

That's business. Nothing personal, just business.

And if you were in my market and asked me for advice, I would give you everything I possibly could to help you out, and avoid the mistakes I made 28 years ago.

If I tolerate some one doing illegal things to gain a competitive advantage, then I am negligent as a business owner. I would expect with your ambition, you would develop a similar attitude after someone eats your lunch a few times. Your young, and energetic. I wish I had that level of stamina.

But I have raised 5 kids, the youngest a bit older than you. After you have had to feed and clothe those young bodies, you get pretty damn defensive about your business, and that is called survival.

If you want spreadsheets, my budget, estimating spreadsheets, hourly rate calculators, PM me with your e mail address and I will send you a lot of stuff to help you out.

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask for advice... this is a great site...but be prepared to accept the wisdom of the ages if we feel you are about ready to step in .

Good Luck... I wish you the best.

[HardDaysKnight]

There has been no ridicule as Dale pointed out.
There has been concern however for not only your
future but for the future of others who play by the rules.
If you really need to ask the questions you did in this
thread than you are not ready or qualified to lay sod for a living.
I mean absolutely no disrespect, BUT, I said it's not rocket science
and you cant, without our help even figure out the square footage
price.
Here are your questions:
- What tools will I need?
- What would a fair hourly rate be to charge out?
- Hourly wage for my workers?
- How to calculate my costs and give a final bill?
- How I should go about estimating?
- How much should I be able to lay in 1 hour?
- Am I exspected to spread the top soil?or
should that already be done before I get there?
You should know these answers already.
There is imo NO market for that service and if you become a
sub to do it , there is no prestige in it.
Like I said, slow down and learn the trade.
You wont have to take baby steps; you will be able to
take bigger strides to make better profits doing
the entire project.

[MVFD]

I thank you again for the advice. I have watched many companies fall from this type athing. Because I dont have the cash flow to do everything by the book right such as WCB and registering that is why I plan I to put every thing I can make back in to the business. That way I will save money intill I can afford to start doing that.

Picture it this way. Remember when you were younger, 12, 13 maybe 14 you parents told you to go out and cut lawns for a bit of extra cash. did you pay your tax on that? Did you pay all of your legal fees and insurence fees? Did you do illegal business that 100% legit businesses could have done such as your selves? making money by cutting those lawns, that you cut for ten or twenty dollars under the table.

That is what I plan to do. dont get me wrong Im an honest person and I dont want to cheat know one. What would that prove? What I need to do, is generate some kind of money that can circulate in the business and have a leg up so I can pay for the business name and become a Limited company. I dont have have the current cash flow from my job to take a chance on. Im doing a lawn here and lawn there for a little while generate some cash that goeas directly in to the company and legal dues.

Im not trying to cheat anyone. I dont want to take business away from anyone. I will do it almost at cost for the one reason I havent done enough lawns to charge out full cost.

If you were my client would you pay me the same as someone that has being laying sod for 25 plus years? since I havent laid over 15 lawns?

If things take off and I end up making $30,000 a year ( I highly doubt that) I will get my GST number and Pay the $1000 to put LTD behind my name.

My mom has seen many failed businesses being that she works in a bank. She has told me many what not to do's and things to be careful of. Why I need to do this, Why I dont need to do that. Things I shouldnt worry about.

One last thing to this rant. I have been thinking of a name to persue later.

Premium Lawns

The sign I would stick in the lawn for advertising would say

"Another Premium Lawn"


I dont know if that works or not but just a thought.

[MVFD]

I never once said I needed help calculating square footage.

Length X Width = SQ FT

And as pointed out, the SQFT Price may very from location to location.

What I wanted help with as you mis-read was thow to calculate costs to bill the customer, whats are some of the going rates for labour, etc. Are you charging material + Install = Final amount or charging them 2 seperate costs? Do they pay for the material first then you install? etc.