[sdinenno]

Because I don't have any friends or family members who can assist me in my business (and I don't want any permanent business partners), I'm trying to take a simpler approach to landscaping. I want to focus on sales and design for high-end residential installation, and subcontract most or all of the work (while still being on-site regularly to oversee each project). I know that I can get plenty of leads for landscaping projects, and I have installers who are willing to do the work at good prices. But is this a feasible way of running a landscaping business, or do I need to have my own installation crews and equipment?

Stuart

[start2finish]

there is a local design company that operates just as you said, but you are drug into the liability if things go sour, ie. injuries, damages, or sub standard work

[TrickyDick]

As stated there are lot's of liability issues to think about. You'll be responsible for lot's of work that you will have minimal control over. You're talking about being a General Contractor/ Project Manager which is something that your clients probably don't need on anything but very large projects. Could be hard to sell since you will be subbing everything you'll be very expensive and why should someone pay you all that money to have someone else do the work when they can get a designer who will involve installers WITHOUT subbing to them or a company that will do the design and install both. Both of those are going to beat your price. It could work but I think its a tough sell.

[agla]

It is a good model for low overhead. It is not bad for liability if you are a skilled professional designer and use proper business practices as a geneal contractor by making sure your subs are licensed, insured, and that their employees and/or subs are also crossing the t's and dotting the i's.

The big problem is whether you can sell jobs that will pay both you and the subs adequately. In other words, why will the client pay for the profit of the pyramid?

Some will if you are adding value that they perceive is worth paying. I am looking into using this very same structure myself because that is really the nature of a landscape architecture firm and the direction that I have been preparing for over the years.

You should not do it with minimal control, but with lots of control. Not the least of which is controlling the purse strings. Contract writing, professional liability insurance, and quality control is very important. To be successful at it, you really will earn your money or you will get no work.

Tricky Dick is correct in that only in the higher end jobs will there be a perceived need to pay for project management. And when that need is there, you can bet that only the people with a great track record and reputation for high end work will be considered for the part.

[start2finish]

alga is right. If done correctly this is a great plan. But make sure you CYA.

[sdinenno]

Actually, I think that my prices won't be expensive. I have already negotiated with three contractors and I know they're giving me much lower prices than homeowners typically pay to the large, well-established landscaping companies. And I don't need to mark up their prices by much because I don't have many expenses to cover. I see all sorts of companies "outsourcing" and, although I could be wrong, I don't see why the same concept can't work for me, especially in a city such as Atlanta which is growing at an incredible rate.

If I had some some sons to help me in the business or if I had a partner, I'd be thinking differently. But I can't do everything myself.

As for potential liabilities, if I worried about all of the possible calamities that could come upon me, I'd be afraid to get out of bed in the morning.

I think the keys to making it work are being able to make a good presentation, coming up with an imaginative and functional design, and providing good customer service. And from what I've seen, these things are lacking in many of the companies in the landscaping business.

[HardDaysKnight]

Using the advice already given, it can work and has worked
already by others who have taken those precautions and
cta. If you take a design/sell/sub approach without being
hands on and involved in over-seeing somewhat, I would
hope you are capable and prepared to do every aspect
of the work you are selling. It may come back to you to
fix or finish things a sub did or did'nt or won't do. That's just
my word of caution.

[sdinenno]

Originally posted by agla

Tricky Dick is correct in that only in the higher end jobs will there be a perceived need to pay for project management. And when that need is there, you can bet that only the people with a great track record and reputation for high end work will be considered for the part.

I agree with this and everything else you've said, agla. But do I necessarily have to present myself as a project manager? And does the client even need to know that I'm subcontracting the work? If I'm going to be on site on a regular basis overseeing the job, and everything is getting done according to my contract with the customer, does it really matter what the structure is beneath me? I'm unsure as to whether I need to disclose to the customer the nature of my relationship to the installers.

[start2finish]

Do you know how to perform the work you are wanting to sub out? If not how do you plan on overseeing it?

How well do you know your subs?

Are they going to bump you on scheduling to go do higher paying jobs?

[sdinenno]

Originally posted by start2finish

Do you know how to perform the work you are wanting to sub out? If not how do you plan on overseeing it?

There will be some things that I will out sub out with which I do not have actual hands-on experience. But I can do the planting and I will know enough about proper installation of the various hardscaping items I sell to make sure that the job is done correctly. (In fact, maybe I ought to detail the installation procedures in any contract between me and my subs).

How well do you know your subs?

Two of them I have used a total of four times with good results. Another comes highly recommended. And another has taken me to see his work and provided references.

Are they going to bump you on scheduling to go do higher paying jobs?

I can't say that this will never happen. But they won't get work from me again if they do. Besides, having employees instead of subs is no guarantee of loyalty and carries it's own set of problems.

[agla]

I will ask you a direct question. Please don't take it as an attack.

You mentioned that if you had sons or a partner, you might do things differently. That makes me think that for some reason you think you can not hire help, or that you can not retain help, or that you can not manage help.

That is a common thing in landscaping. In fact, I believe it is the biggest thing that limits growth of landscape companies. I also believe that that the majority of landscape companies have two to three workers and are limited to that by the maximum ability of the owner to manage his help. The other thing that I believe is that these owners who can not make it "over the hump" can not come to terms with the fact that they can not manage more than 2 or three guys. Instead they blame the work force, or keep buying equipment and offer more services, yet always shake down to the 2-3 man work force. I know this is a long aside, but it is something you have to confront within yourself in order to know if you can be successful at the business model you are talking about.

Here is the question:
Do you want to follow this business model because you do not believe you can manage your own help to get the work done?

If that is the case, you have to understand that managing someone else's help through that someone else is not necessarily easier. You are going to have to sign off on the work these guys do and release their money. You also have to be collecting that money from the client to make those payments. If you think that you can hire a sub, hand him the plan and collect a pieceof the money, you'll be disappointed and most likely in a lot of trouble.

Lower bidding contractors have a common theme. They make a bid to get a job. Then they spend the rest of their efforts in making that low price work by trying to buy the least expensive plants that meet the discription, use the least amount of mulch or topsoil, etc,.. On the other end, you are trying to make the best landscape you can to build your reputation and you are putting it in the hands of others.

There is a reason why landscape architects, and other who project manage, work in higher end markets. It is not just because they are snobs, it is because it is the only market that accepts this. That works on both ends as well. The client has the dough to pay someone to be their agent and manage the project for them in an area where they know little about (very key). From the subcontractor's point of view, this works when he is able to get high end jobs that are very profitable to him. He has to have the incentive to put up with all of the BS from the landscape architect (or PM) so that it is something worth while ($$).

Now, if you don't want the client to know that you are not doing the work, it tells me that you are not working as the client's agent. That is a mistake on your part because that is where the value of paying you extra is for the client. If you can do that it will work. If you want to run a landscape contracting business using other companies to do the work, it won't.

[sdinenno]

Originally posted by agla
Here is the question:
Do you want to follow this business model because you do not believe you can manage your own help to get the work done?

No, I believe that I could manage my own crews to do the work, if I had to do so. It's just that I want to keep things simple and focus my efforts on a few things (sales, marketing, and design). And, to be honest with you, I'd like to avoid the expense, debt, and maintenance hassles of owning the equipment that is necessary to do the work.

Maybe it sounds like I'm trying to take the easy way out, but I'm willing to work hard at this, and spend long hours at it, and I don't mind getting my hands dirty doing the work. In fact, if I could just do installations and avoid having to bother with sales, marketing, and design, I could be just as happy doing things that way. But it seems as though I need to take one route or the other. If I try to do everything, nothing will get done right. I have no problem finding qualified and dependable installers and so why not use them and focus my efforts elsewhere?

Now, if you don't want the client to know that you are not doing the work, it tells me that you are not working as the client's agent. That is a mistake on your part because that is where the value of paying you extra is for the client. If you can do that it will work. If you want to run a landscape contracting business using other companies to do the work, it won't.

I appreciate your blunt criticism and welcome more of it. I'm unsure as to how to approach this with the customers and that's why I'm here asking questions. Should I represent myself as someone offering design and project management services, or should I represent myself as a landscaping contractor? I have done it both ways, and ended up with satisfied customers and a profit in each case. In one case, I had a freelance designer make a design for the customer, then I got bids from three hardscaping companies and selected one to do the work who added a commission into the job for me. Both the designer and the hardscaper contracted directly with the client on that job. In some cases, I have contracted with the client and subbed out all of the work. And in a job I'm working on now, I did the initial design work, contracted the job with the customer and will do the planting while subbing out the hardscaping.

Maybe I can be flexible and continue to do things in a variety of ways, depending on the situation. But I'd prefer to sub out all of the work and focus on marketing/sales/design, if I can do so.

[TrickyDick]

I can sympathize with your situation. I have a partener, 3-6 employees depending on the season and a modest collection of tools and equipment. We do high-end maintenance, contruction and design and managing it is a lot of work, much of which can be tedious and time consuming. Either of us could probably manage it on our own but not nearly as well and I personally wouldn't want to try. So I understand what you're thinking and focusing on what you do best is a good place to start.

In my opinion if you're going to do it you should be up front about it. You will have to focus on high end work and you will have to be worth it. Your designs need to be really good, the finished product needs to be excellent and you need to be able to sell yourself and your approach. The idea that you have different contractors that you work with depending on the specific needs of the client could be a selling point if you can sell yourself as someone they can trust to do what's best for them.

[agla]

You have to sell yourself as their agent and they have to see the value in having you as their agent. That is what it comes down to. Now you have to decide if you are the agent for the contractor, or the agent for the client.

I'm going with the client in my case.

[pineapple]

I have worked for both types of companies: Landscape contractor with in-house labor and equipment and also for the Landscape contractor who uses subs to install the job.

Both types are common here and I haven't heard of anyone not hiring a co because they use subs. On the surface, it seems, yeah, why would they hire you to oversee the job when they could work directly with the contractor. They don't want to. They want to work with someone they trust. You have to sell yourself as the expert.

The ones who use subs tend to be either landscape architects or little ladies with a hobby business.

Speaking from experience, working as the general contractor is a very large headache. Subs don't show up for meetings, things are delayed, the installer doesnt order the plants until the morning of, the gate falls off the hinge and you can't get them to come back and fix it, you are responsible for getting waranty items fixed by a contractor who is too busy, etc....

However, having it in-house is also hard. You have to keep the crews busy and manage equipment and supplies, while trying to sell and design, etc.

My business is design/build (I'm a landscape architect) and I have a crew and equipment. If I could switch to the other type of business, I would do it in a heartbeat. I don't because I can't make as much money that way.

When you are general contractor your income is from design fees and the 20-30% markup you are charging on the jobs. If you have enough high-end volume, that is ok.