[cutntrim]

Well, I'm not "new" but I didn't know which subheading to put this thread under.

I'm 95% maintenance but looking to expand installation. For smaller-scale residential jobs I'd like to know how you install guys go from concept-to-design. Say for example, that a residential customer on a small lot (<5,000sq.ft.) wants a backyard patio and a couple of garden beds installed.

Do you ask for a site plan if the owner has one and then create a design off of that? Do you provide a quick sketch or a detailed diagram? Hand-drawn or by computer? Which computer program?
Do you use a digital camera? In what way do you use it? Are your drawings/computer renderings to scale?

A lot of questions I know. I just wonder how involved the design process is for you guys when you do small-scale residential jobs that are under $10,000?

Thanks.

[cutntrim]

Hmmm. Simplified question - how involved do you get with design work on small residential jobs usually?

[Stonehenge]

I'll answer 'em.....

Digital camera - I always use it for every project - even the lowly lawn seeding projects. Doesn't cost me anything to store the information, and it almost always helps me to create a better bid. My digital cameras are used for my marketing/PR, training manuals, and posting here, so I always have one with me. The fancy one gets used for the 'after' photos, so they can be blown up later if I need them.


I almost never take a site plan from the client - they are usually inaccurate, especially if it's a plan that a competitor drew up (got stung once using what I assumed was an accurate drawing from a large competitor - turned out many of the dimensions were not even close!). So I take the measurements myself. You get to the point where you know how big every patio door is, every average chimney, and I usually round to the closest 3" or 6". I can usually measure house and lot in 15-20 minutes, another 2 minutes for photos.

My plans are hand-drawn at this point (you know, you'd think with my wading armpit-deep in technology that I'd be a wiz at CAD or Dynascape or something...I even own Turbo CAD, just never got around to working with it). I don't like just making a quickie sketch - all plans are drawn to scale, so everyone knows exactly what they're getting. Plus, as I step away from the shovel, it'll be easier for my men to install the right thing. Certainly, small, inexpensive projects get a less involved design, both in detail and in general scope.

The process doesn't really change for projects over $10,000. Just more hand-holding is all.

[agla]

That is an excellent question. A plan really has three major purposes. One is to sell a job. Another is to act as part of the contract to document size and location of what goes into the job. The other is to let you, the designer or contractor, to know just what will fit in the space and more accurately estimate the job and see that all the functions can actually happen in the area that you are to work with.

In sales it really does not matter, from a practical standpoint, whether the plan is CAD, fine hand drawing, or crayons on a napkin just as long as the customer is satisfied that you understand their needs and they feel comfortable that you can deliver. Presentation is part of building that, but to what degree you need to take that to will vary. As someone else once put it, you have to match the hatch.

As part of a contract, the clearer and more accurate the plan is the less squabbling there can be as to whether or not you delivered what was agreed to. That is important to both the buyer and the seller. You need to exercise your judgment on how much detail you put in. Too much and you are not given flexibility to adapt as you go. To little and you leave yourself open to misunderstandings with your client.

What is most important is that the plan gives you complete confidence in knowing that the 12'x 16' patio does fit there along with the plants that you specified and that the walk you priced out will indeed be 18' long while starting and finishing where you said it would.

I am of the opinion that digital imaging is not the best way to go because you document a result that is not always reached. It is true that customers get wowed, but it is more often than not that the finished product does not look very much like the picture. Worse yet is the fact that it does not accurately tell you if all that you put in the picture will actually fit in that space. I have seen more enhanced photos showing steps an retaining walls on what were flat sites to begin with. If the driveway is where it was and the doorway is where it was, how the hell can you build a two foot retaining wall and add three steps?

My suggestion is that you start with practical measurements that relate to the work that you are doing. That is usually worked around a house which is the easiest thing to measure and draw because they are mostly a collection of squares that can easily be duplicated on graph paper. I recommend graph paper with four squares to the inch, a good circle template that has 1/8" or less increments, a ruler, a 100' tape, and a 25' tape. Measure the house first and draw it on the graph paper counting each line as a unit of measure (sometimes 1' per square, other times 2' per square,... just be consistent within each plan and make sure it will fit).

Most things out in the yard can be accurately measured by lining up one tape with either the end of the house or a jog in it. Then use the other tape to measure from the item (lets say a tree) back to the first tape trying to be somewhat parallel to the face of the house. Note the distance from the tree back to the tape and where on the first tape you land (i.e., the tree is 12' out from the house and 6' from the end of the house). You simply count the squares on the graph paper and sketch in the tree and note what it is (4" caliper oak). Do the same for driveways, walks, ... and you are on your way to having an accurate base plan.

When you get home you can make copies and sketch out your ideas and you will be doing it to scale. Draw in your plants with the circle template at the sizes which they are normally maintained at and spaced at. Count squares or uses your ruler or scale to accurately determine how long walks are or how big patios are for estimating.

When you are ready to show your client, use black pens to embellish the circles into plant symbols. Use a fat pen, like a sharpie, to make the house bold and vary the line weights on different plants to make it more interesting. A quick color job using colored pencils goes a long way. Use two tones on plant symbols - a lighter one to the upper left, darker to the lower right. Use a black felt tip to shadow the lower right outside of the plant symbol to create a shadow. The shadow pops the plants off of the paper. Anyone can do this.

A plan like that and if you make sure that you mention everything that the client mentioned to you (whether or not you used their idea), and a few good pictures of things you have done will be all you need to sell, solidify your contracts, and keep from looking like a fool by not guessing what will fit in a space.

Always date and title your plans, reference them in your contract, retain the originals, and include a copy with the contract.

[jwholden]

However detailed I need to be.

Just because a job is small in size does not mean it is a small job.

I have yet to get a site plan for a lot, though I have been offered them. If there was any concern whatsoever I would get one and check for the setbacks from the property line.

If the customer passes my screens and the decision is made to go ahead with a design I will take measurements. I like to bring an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of graph paper to keep things neat. All windows are usually 3' wide, steps are invariably 1' deep.

I like to measure the site because it gives me a chance to stumble onto things I may have overlooked. Where's the water spigot? Where's the electric meter? How does the soil slope around the site? Why did the guy that installed this landscape cover the siding with soil and mulch?

As I measure my mind is thinking about the design and I begin to see the details of the project before the overall picture. What a perfect spot for a Kousa Dogwood! I need some shrubs here for a sense of enclosure. God that meter is ugly, I must have an arborvitae there!

Once I finish my measurements I snap plenty of digital photos. As Jeff said, they don't cost a thing and I invariably forget at least one measurement which I can fudge with these pictures.

Finally, I stand back from the house and think about the site as a whole. I figure out how I am going to transition from the parts of the design that are 'must haves' to 'I wonder what if's'. I do not like to linger too long because I feel that my customer may think I have no ideas, though I'm sure the look on my face proves the wheels are turning.

While staring at the house I write down how much time I think it will take to prepare the site, how much topsoil, and how much mulch will be needed. I cannot use a picture to estimate these quantities. If there are any trees or shrubs that I feel must be a minimum height I will write this down as well.

Once I get back to the office the design is basically done, it is just a matter of putting in on paper. Depending on how 'small' the job is I draw it out on 11 x 17 graph paper or 18 x 36 vellum. I don't use any computer programs for drawing , but I do keep a nice list of 2D symbols by my drafting table to make my designs 'pop'.

Once the design is completed it's off to Quickbooks to count up my plants and enter them into the proposal. I then put in my numbers for prep and supplies and call the client to make an appointment to present my ideas and estimate. If I'm not very motivated I make the appointment with the client first. There is no better motivator than a deadline!

I suspect that is way more detail than you wanted but I hope it helps in some way.

[cutntrim]

I appreciate the replies from all three of you, thanks. I just got in from plowing/salting so I hadn't had a chance to check the forum earlier.

I finally own a digital camera and hope to put it to good use. I'm not the most computer-literate guy (at 34 I finished school just ahead of the kids that started young with computers) so I think that for now hand-drawn is the better way to go.

Thanks for the tips - not only can I apply them when I do my own future designs/installations, but it gives me an idea what competitors may be doing, by way of presentation as well.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get further involved in the installation side of things. In the meantime, if anyone needs some advice where maintenance (summer or winter) is concerned, don't hesitate to ask.

[Bamboo]

The way I do it is almost exactly the way you all do it.
My problem is the fact that it takes so much time to get it all on paper price it all out then present it to the customer. I probably have about 6 hours in to each plan proposal process. It really stinks when you do all this work you end up not getting the job.
How can we get paid for the initial design review process? People always tell me "well all the other contractors ive ever had have givin me a price without paying for it" So how do we doge that bullet? Landscape designers get paid why not the design build company?

[trees]

You've got to charge for the design work. Tell them up front how much it will be. I've worked with companies that have a rubric of sorts ($200-300 for front foundation, etc.), or that charge straight hourly fees, a friend of mine who does design work charges by lineal ft. of the house (a unique concept that sounds weird, but when looking at it actually works).

Customers that balk probably aren't worth the effort. It's a good way to make sure you're approaching people who are serious. I'm fond of telling people that those that don't charge aren't putting much thought into it. Outline the benefits of having a scale drawing to them & let them know that when it comes to design "You get what you pay for". Some firms will refund part or all of the design "deposit" when the job is complete. Make a decision and stick to your guns. Serious clients will pay for a good product. Good luck!

[Bamboo]

Alot of times they just want prices up front. But I cant price it out until I have a design on paper. How do companys price out jobs without knowing what they are going to EXACTLY be doing.
Thanks for the advice!
Also what kind of line do you give customers when the first words out of their mouth is "how much an hour do you charge?" I am still kind of bumbeling over that one.

[HRLand]

Bamboo,

I might be wrong but you sound like you may be somewhat new to this. I'm sure it was hard for all of us in the beginning, I know it was for me. Once you start doing installs regularly you will be able to give people an idea of what a job will cost before you waste time drawing a plan. As others have said, get paid for your plan.

[agla]

You need to be able to separate out the simple jobs that really only need a list of plants, materials, and approximate time vs. a job that needs a plan.

You should be able to visualize how many plants will fit in a simple foundation planting and then having a shortlist of plants with installation figured into it. That way you could whip up a quick estimate.

If it takes more and you need a plan, then give them a very good idea of what you would do so they get excited. You need them to value a plan from you before they will pay for a plan from you. Once you do that, you can give them a price to do a plan for them. Until you have this down very well, you could offer to take the price of the plan off of the construction cost, if they go with you.

Another good selling point is to use graph paper, a circle template, some felt tip pens, and colored pencils to make a fast color scaled plan on site (only part of the job if it is big. That will put you ahead of the competition in the eyes of the homeowner. (do a search on this site, we discussed this in some detail a while back).

[Stonehenge]

I was hoping Agla would reply to this one. Bamboo, my advice would be to run a search on all of Agla's posts (click the button in his profile) and look for his numerous posts on this topic. I think he offers some of the best advice on many topics, but this one in particular.

[Bamboo]

Well I didnt really know where to post this one but here I am.
I was wondering what you all think about a situation that happend to me.
Last year a good old contact told me to put in a drip system at his motherinlaws. Anyway the plantings were in and beds mulched.
I put in the drip and timer.
He had another company put in the initial landscape but they were charging a fortune so I got the rest of the job. (lawn install, side yard and back yard).
The original company met me and really liked my work and didnt really seem too concerned that I took over on their scene.
After that job, the other company started refering me to their lawns and irrigation at other jobs(sweet!)
Now heres the issue.>>> Im still maintaining the original job (award winning i might add) and now the original company came back to the job noticed a few sickly or dead plants. Plants that I have been planning on replacing anyway. So they said they talked to the homowner and were wondering how I wanted to "do it". (just out of the blue)They said do you want us to buy the plants or do want to buy the plants and ohh ya they want to put their sign up in the yard again a year later. I told them ill talk to the homeowner and see what she want me to do like I do every week.
Am I just crazy or is this kindof in my face steppin on my toes?

[HardDaysKnight]

It's your property now and your sign ONLY belongs on it.

[Bill Schwab]

Sounds like a good way to get a pissing match started if you ask me. Either you do or they do it. Your sign or no sign. Simple as that. I got caught up in something like that the second job we did when we moved here....Now if someone even attempts to suggest that I tell them what we require of our clients, one being our pay schedule is met on time, two being WE control the job and what goes on with it. If another contractor is going to be hired to do any work, they coordinate that with US first, and that contractor works around us, not the other way around. Let them calculate into their bid the extra steps they need to take without slowing our production.

What can occur when you let someone else come in is the homeowner can turn the way they want you to do the work around, using different methods, different schedules and so fourth, and, because YOU allowed them to take control, your efficiency is shot in the foot. Remember you are the pro and they place faith and trust in you and your judgements, or you move along.

In the case you presented, you need to excersize a little finese in the way you go about things, because of the referrals the first company gives you.