[Dale Wiley]

We are bidding a 300 street tree planting project. These will be planted in park strips that we are going to dig holes in, add soil mix, ADS watering tubes.

We are responsible for watering June - October. Any trees that die we have to replace.

Does any one know where I can find some information and pricing on polymers that we can include in the backfill ??

Thanks...

[Stonehenge]

I'll have to check - there was a study done by a University on the East Coast, studying the use of super-absorbent materials (like Terra-Sorb, Soil-Moist, etc) when planting street trees (down a typical 'Main St.' The plantings were done only with gravel and a super-absorbent, with a mix of native soils and compacted stone around them, in a typical street tree planting. The results were pretty good, if I recall.

I want to say it was a university in New York that conducted the tests. If I find the source, I'll let you know.

[Dale Wiley]

I think it was Cornell... I am going to surf over there later.

Thanks..

[jwholden]

Dale,

If you look in the AM Leonard catalog I'm sure you'll see a listing for bulk soil moist. That stuff is like gold!

An option I use around my parts is something called Roots. It has Microrhizae in it which help the plant absorb water better. I'm sure there are additional goodies as well to lessen transplant shock.

Roots has a formulation called Roots Plus, which includes all of the goodies mentioned above PLUS polymers to hold water. I used that on the Japanese Maple post. I bought the Roots plus in a convenient little pack that was supposed to be sized just right for one tree (I used three around the maple, better safe than sorry!).

A final note, I read somewhere that for each additional 1 % of organic matter you put in the soil the water holding capacity increases 50%. (If I quoted this wrong please let me know) If you are going to blend a planting mix put enough compost and sand in there to make it a nice sandy loam.

Do a serch for roots and roots plus and see what you find.

[Dale Wiley]

jw:

great info.. thank you... I remember reading about those products, I think they are plant health care products.. I like the idea of a combo product like that. I'll run a search on that.

The soil mix we put it has 1/3 fine ground bark, 1/3 sandy loam, and 1/3 compost. We have used it exstensively the past 2 years.

We have a 100% survival rate on our installed plant materials this last year. I want to keep that going.

[PSUscaper]

I think I know but am not sure......................what's a ADS watering tube???

I was going to suggest the use of a tree gator or something along those lines instead of the polymers......but maybe that's what the ADS is?

Also, I have a question with the polymers.............if the tree never receives water....ie. drought.......then, are polymers in the soil of any real value? Also, if the soil isn't heavily soaked, do the polymers deeper in the soil get adequate water to be 'recharged'.

I aske this because one of my concerns with this hole situation is even with polymers, if the trees aren't water, won't they suffer? That's why I like the tree gator idea better.

steve

[Bexter]

Dale ... I can't help you with your question but I have one for you... we just finished a 285 tree replacement (boulevards)planting. Drought killed more than 1000 trees the past few years..they could only afford 285 this year. Can you explain what equipment you will use? We had one machine and truck going ahead and plugging the holes while another machine(we don't have a boom truck), truck and trailer set the trees in the holes, cut the wire,string and burlap. When we figured we had enough set for the day we would go back and get soil and the water tank ... another crew went and mulched. Our best day was 50 that included loading up for the next day. We were more efficient compared to other years but sure would like to get better.

[dan deutekom]

Bexter

I think if you manage to fully load and plant and water 50 trees in one day with what I assume from your post is 2 crews I think you are doing real well. I think your boys deserve a on you.

I have used polymers for Interior Landscape projects. I have found that they have their pros and cons. The pro part is that it stores extra water for the plant so that you do not have to water as often but you still have to get the same amount of water to the plant. If things get really dry polymers give you a little extra time to get the soil watered. The big problem is that if the polymer drys up it takes a whole lot of water to get them recharged and I have found that they only seem to last about 6 months.

[PSUscaper]

Dan,

That's kind of the point I was trying to get too.

It seems that, even with polymers, you're gonna have to make sure the trees get watered on a regular basis, or least, get watered during dry spells.

Being this is the case, then, wouldn't it be a safer route to include a scheduled watering routine for the trees into the price?

Also, not sure about the studies, but something about the use of polymers really bothers me.

When planting a new tree...........all of the roots are in the root ball. When you incorporate polymers into the planting mix, what you are doing is putting the polymers AROUND the root ball........NOT inside of them.

In other words, over the short period from june to oct, how many roots REALLY make it outside the root ball and benefit from the polymers.

It seems to me, that unless you had trees that the root ball ALREADY had polymers mixed in, you are hardly doing a thing to get the trees roots watered.

I would have to argue, that for a short term guarantee such as this, polymers would be very ineffective at supplying sufficient water to the roots, being that MOST of the roots are going to be still in the root ball (i've dug trees up that were in for months that still didn't have many roots coming out of the balls) Over the long term, well......yes, I believe there are benefits to be had..........BUT..........the long term isn't what you are guaranteeing.

Just a little argument to be started I guess!

[jwholden]

I'm in the business for the long term. Even though I only guarantee my plantings (excluding perennials and transplants) one year I do everything I can to ensure they survive more than one summer.

I occasoinally use polymers . In late spring I was afraid that some plants I transplanted were going to get blasted by the summer heat and another time when I moved a Japanese maple. So far all of the plants have survived. (Oh, and I add some to any container plantings I do for seasonal color. Homeowners don't get the concept of watering on a regular basis as well). I agree that polymers give you a little longer between waterings. This water reservoir couldn't hurt.

Steve, a watering schedule built into the price is the best way to go or bid high to make sure you have the funds available to buy replacements. If Dale has been told he has to guarantee the trees for x months then I would assume he builds this into his price.

[Paul]

I have to wonder about polymers, we have done pit planting (street trees) and have not found much difference between the two. My preference is to fully excavate the pits (most are 6 foot square) to the depth of the root ball and back fill with a soil mix of 1/3 black dirt, sand and mushroom compost. This mix seems to hold moisture well and makes it easy to get water to the trees.

My question about the polymers, does it give up the water at the right time? or are the trees stressed before it gives it up? Our losses seem to be the same with either plantings. I can't claim a perfect record on these trees we loose about 5% of what we plant. But that runs with our other plantings. The biggest reason for losses are dry falls and and winters followed by a dry early spring. This year was one of the worst, no snow cover with a dry fall and no rain until mid May. If the polymers give up water during the late fall and early winter then I think it would be worth it. But if they can't do that I would keep going with your regular planting mix and figure water schedule.

[Dale Wiley]

Damn... we don't need no university studies with this group to ask...

I appreciate the GREAT advice you all have put up.

The trees will be street tree varietes 2 inch caliper, 28 inch root ball in wire baskets and degradeable burlap.

We will have to replace any trees that die by virtue of a one year maintenance period.

The holes will be dug with Dingo and 32 inch auger, backfilled with soil mix and fert abs. The ADS water tubes will be 3 inch ADS perferated drain pipe installed on 2 sides of the trees. Watering is down the tubes.

Mulched with 3 inches of compost or bark.

We have to water the trees mininmum of 2 times per month June through Sept 15. We have a 525 gallon tank on our trailer we will use for that.

The past contractors have been paid up front for the watering and then dropped the ball when it came time to water. We have proposed being paid monthly for the watering, so we schedule it and get paid like any other job.

Looks like this is a toss up. The cost of polymers per tree is about $ 1.00. The soils and watering schedule are real close to what the trees are grown in the nursery. I think we will probably do it just to gain a little more water holding capacity between waterings.

To futher answer bexters question... we will have a 4 man crew on this job. One will start digging holes with the Dingo, one will head to the nursery to pick the trees up and 2 will prepare the holes, unload the soils and stakes. We will punch the holes, drop the trees in the holes (with Dingo) to what we can do in one day. I figure 30 per day mininmum. We then come back, set the trees, do the stakes soils, burlap yada yada yada...

Thanks again.. as I think you all can tell.. this group of contractors is by far the most experienced and professional I have found on the net in all the assorted sites...