[Nathaniel Carr]

I am bidding on my first munny planting. About 40 2" caliper trees and 60 shrubs (yews, winterberry holly and dogwoods). The specs call for plants to be wrapped, staked, guyed, sprayed w/ anti desiccant on transplanting, backfilled with planting mix (5 soil:2 peat:1 compost), maintained for 1 year.

There is a ton of stuff that is unclear to me and the walk around is tomorrow. (still 8 inched min of snow)

What is not specified-
do 6 ft arbs need stakes?
is watering included in "maintain for 1 (one) year"?
is it ok to sub varieties?
does the wrap go on at planting or in the fall?

some of the specs seem not so much to insure quality as to insure the contractor must utter "yes sir" and "thank you sir". And some of the specs require the contractor to do the wrong thing, like digging the planting hole 12 inches deeper than the ball, and adding planting mix, compacting, then planting the tree. Where did they get that? And, not adding more than 9 inches of planting mix at a time before watering the tree in. I have watered trees in as I plant them, and after wards I never did it again.

On average how often is a job over speced, and what do you do about it, just do it the way you always do, or do you have a sample of the planting mix tested at the agriculture testing facility. Do you fake it a little... from what I have seen of munny work, alot of it is faked.

[TrickyDick]

In my experience, which is limited, ALL municipal and larger commercial work is over speced. I think that a lot of LA's use a standard set of specs that are not specific to the job...it's just 80 pages of crap that were compiled by an intern 15 years ago. What I have always been told when I have pressed is that if I don't like it than propose my own so that is what I do. I don't write my own eighty pages of crap but I will detail some important stuff and make it clear that I am not basing my proposal on those specs and will not be bound be them. Obviously the wording is important and it would be smart to talk to a lawyer about it but I haven't. I think a lot of contractors ignore those specs both in bidding and executing the work but I'm not comfortable with taking that chance.

[Paul]

Most of what is written in spec's has seen it's day but the powers to be never really look at what they are specing and why. If you see it in a muni bid means it's been there longer than time itself. It worked before and should work Now!

Planting soil should be close but over digging the holes no way, I always forgot the anti descant spray, tree wrap is not a real problem, and staking only on pines and large caliper trees in late fall unless pressed by LA .

[Nathaniel Carr]

The purpose of the specifications is to get everyone to bid apples to apples, but if folks are going to be picking and choosing the extra steps that they go through, then what is the point? The playing field isn't level.

So what's a brother to do when bidding against other firms that are not going to factor extra costs into their bid?

The biggest speced line item in my bid is the custom planting mix. I am throwing away all excavate and replanting with 20 yrds of custom blend.
After that it would be ooze tubes, then stakes. If other guys are not going to be through with the planting mix then I am going to be high by a couple G's.

Do I cross my fingers or is there someway to win?

[Nathaniel Carr]

Do I bid it without all the extras, and loose my shirt when the site engineer turns out to have written the specs?

Do I bid according to the specs and loose out to another company that knows that noone will be looking for wrap and wiltpruf?

[dan deutekom]

These bids are always a crap shoot. I would bid to the specs. You probably won't win but that is OK. Watch how the contractor that does win performs the job. Keep an eye on the planting during the maintenance period and see what is acceptable to the municipality. With this knowledge then you will be able to bid competitivly next time.

Most of these bids are won by the lowest bidder and if you check the history you will find it is almost always the same few contractors that win. They are not cheap but they know how to ignore certain specs that arn't enforced. As a new bidder if you win, the municipality usually will hold you to the smallest detail of the contract to "put you in your place" and it will take a few contracts to be trusted.

Another thing is that if the municipality is a little cash strapped these specifications allow them to find 100 ways to hold up paying you. Usually there is a large holdback during the maintenance period and then you have to fix any "defieciencies" before you get your money. That usually takes another 3 months. Add all this to the expense of carrying a bond and it can be a real money loser.

A lot depends on the person administrating the contract and that can change mid contract because of politics. Tread carefully

[jshilan]

Another option is not to waste your time on bid work. It is a very time consuming, highly competetive venture fraught with winks, nods and corner cutting. I think the odds of winning at blackjack are better then bidding a landscape install and winning. And even when you win you lose.

If you want to be a bid contractor you need to know people, have very good resources and understand the game (which does not seem to be the case).

I would also buy a lot of shirts (since you will be losing most of them).

A much better business model is design/build rather than bid work.

[Paydaze7]

whys that because it didn't work for you. i do landscaping/seeding/erosion control on public projects, thats ALL i do.. my labor rates are high but my profit margins are even higher.. we do about 70% for gcs and the remainder 30% is for the public agency directly, either way its all bid out... design/build is a nightmere, designs/plans to come up, h/o's to change their mind, h/o's to not pay.. i wouldn't go back to resi/comm work in a million years, id rather go out of business.. im not saying you can't make money at it, it just wasn't my cup of tea.. the muni market is really sucking on smaller jobs like this because every lawn jockey wants to bid on them and run with the big dogs.. thats why we go after the really big jobs where you have a huge outlay for material because it drops the competition quickly. but half of them dont pay rate like they are supposed to or screw the job up completley.. nathaniel, you need to submit all your questions to the owner and get Written answers, dont just wing it.. most engineers will look at the wrap and the stuff they can see, not so much the backfill.. like paul said most specs are so outdated, i still see specs from the 70's but no one wants to rock the boat and change them.. its easier to just keep using them.. good luck on your job....

Originally Posted by jshilan

A much better business model is design/build rather than bid work.

[jshilan]

That's what is so great about this website. Very different opinions, based on very different experience and very different business models.

Paydaze7, your advice about getting everything in writing and what spec's to focus on is very insightful and helpful to someone that wants to do bid work. It is an extremely difficult business for someone who is just getting into it.

Design/Build definately has its issues as you pointed out and is it not for everyone either. I'll make you a deal, you can have the bids and I'll take the crazy homeowners.

[dan deutekom]

Both bid and design/build have there advantages and disadvantages. But with municipal work you have to have all of your ducks in a row and have a very sharp pencil to make it work. That dosn't mean it can't be profitable (did interiorscape work for different levels of government profitably for many years) but compared to our design/build the margins were a lot slimmer.

[Paydaze7]

true they each have pros/cons.. i like the different jobs we do which is awesome and keeps it interesting, highways, airports, working at night, etc.. ALWAYS something different.. another advantage is there is always govt work. i have buddies that do commercial planting and they are slower than slow right now. on the otherhand, this is looking to be a record year for us.. even if the economy worsens the govt will always have to improve the infastructure...

[dan deutekom]

Originally Posted by Paydaze7

another advantage is there is always govt work.

So very true