[Terre]

I have a client who had a landscape plan drawn up 4 years ago by landscape architecture company. Tells me he likes it. Wants me to impliment parts of it.

What is drawn on the LA plan calls for the top to have an Austrian Pine at the corner of the home, and 7 purpleleaf sand cherrys along the slope of the rr tie retaining wall. Next layer down, in the center, calls for 4 serviceberrys and 4 currant bushes. The bottom section calls for a hot tub (future) beside the patio, area is 8x8, and the rr ties extend out about 15ft, but between the hot tub and the lowest layer of rr ties, his plan calls for 3 Aspen trees along the retaining wall.

I'm not really comfortable with this. The aspens would be within 5 ft of the area where he will be installing a hot tub, with tile or concrete surrounding it, and eventually a large swimming pool. I'd prefer not to use aspen at all, but overall I don't like the concept of trees and large shrubs that close to the retaining wall or the house.

Am I nuts here or what?

[4seasons]

I personally think it would look odd with aspens and serviceberries so close together.
whats going in the raised area?serviceberries? or are they down by the window?
Need some evergreen besides the austrian pine( disease susceptible)

[Terre]

On the plans, the lowest area is 3 ft wide between the lowest retaining wall to the planned concrete/tile around the hot tub, and 15 ft out from the house. That is where he has on the diagram for 3 aspens.

Next level up, (where the cart? is) measures 15' x 18' which is where he is locating 4 serviceberrys, and 4 Alpine currants.

I really don't like to criticize someone elses plans, especially someone who obviously is better qualified, but I don't like these choices from an aesthetic point of view, and I'm really wondering about roots and the retaining walls and whether or not there will be issues later on?

[VoodooChile]

This plan --as described for the site pictured-- is tremendously over-planted, and the plant choice dubious.

Did the L.A. work for a nursery? Were they long on Austrian Pines and Aspens?

Aspens are fast growing, aggressive, short-lived species that do best in naturalized settings. Their propensity to suckering and dropping litter make them very poor choices next to hards-capes and lawns. They also blow over easily as they age, making them a hazard next to a structure.

Austrian Pines have similar litter problems, are succumbing to borer issues in the Midwest, and will overpower the site in a decade. We have removed more than one that was sited within 20' of a foundation, or next to a walk.

Sand cherries at that density will need regular pruning to keep contained, and they don't prune well.

I love Serviceberries, but 4 is a ton.

And then there is the wall...

I would trust your instincts and experience on this. You could install as specified, but long-term this planting will decline in quality. That will reflect on your business, not on the L.A's. The neighbors and the client will associate the quality of the landscape with the name on your trucks, not the name of a L.A. whom they probably have never seen or met.

Just because someone is an L.A., doesn't mean every plan they produce is sound. A good portion of our business has been devoted to "Landscape Rehabilitation", and many of our clients spend 1000s of $$$$ repairing installations that were both poorly designed and executed. The firms whose work we re-hab are often some of the largest design companies and nurseries in southern Wisconsin...not to name names.

I'm only speculating, but I suspect that many times the designers take a cookie-cutter approach to plans for new construction, and the over-planting is driven by an excess of questionable nursery stock.

If you have good reasons for your qualms, stand by them. 9 times out of 10, you will only earn the respect and appreciation of your client. If nothing else, you will save him a ton of money in fewer plants and much less long term maintenance.

If the client insists that you bid as specified in the plan, then you have a tough decision to make, based on your schedule for the year, your desire to continue working in the neighborhood short- and long-term, and your willingness to go out on a limb and produce a better plan.

[sandim]

[quote=VoodooChile;54129]This plan --as described for the site pictured-- is tremendously over-planted, and the plant choice dubious....
You could install as specified, but long-term this planting will decline in quality. That will reflect on your business, not on the L.A's. The neighbors and the client will associate the quality of the landscape with the name on your trucks, not the name of a L.A. whom they probably have never seen or met......
I'm only speculating, but I suspect that many times the designers take a cookie-cutter approach to plans for new construction, and the over-planting is driven by an excess of questionable nursery stock....


I highly agree with Voodoo!!

I am so sick of these cookie cutter designs where so many L.A.'s here in CT just plan Rhodies, Andromeda and my favorite (NOT!) creeping Junipers. So many of these L.A.'s can't, or don't, think outside the box.

I would strongly try to get your client to agree to either a new design of your doing, or at bare minimum a modification of their orginal design. Here are two ways you could approach it....depending on your workload as Voodoo said, or how badly you want to keep this client and/or get in the neighborhood, you could do a design for them for free if they agree to do a maintenance service with you or use one of your other services.
If you get the re-design, just be sure it's not more $$ or it will look like your gouging them. I know...obvious statement. It looks like that space is so small and so over planted in the original design it would be hard to charge more.

If that doesn't work, you could either not do the install based on what you know will happen, or again, maybe do a re-design for free regardless of other services used. I personally would not do the install that way and I would just explain to the client why the design won't work and you have your reputation and standards to maintain. Really...who turns away work unless it's bad for them?? That ought to get them thinking. It should also earn you some darn good respect and trust. It would be so easy to take their money, but you're better than that and it shows.

[Terre]

Whew! Ok, thank you. That is what I wanted to hear, but I can rely on you guys to tell me honestly, not what I want to hear.

I really have little to no use for aspens in town. They thrive in acidic soil, we have akaline, and they are sooooo prone to disease and as Voodoo pointed out, the suckering. I just was having a hard time believing someone trained in this could recommend them for this location.

It appeared massively overplanted to me as well. That was one of my concerns. And with those serviceberrys there, no view from the window at all.

Now I can go back to this guy and tell him that not only do I think it's a poor design with bad plant choices, but I've spoken with my "expert consultants" and they agree! Based on the working relationship I have with him so far, I don't think I'll have a problem convincing him modifications are needed.

Thanks guys.

[VoodooChile]

Why the 4 year delay between the plan and the installation?

[Terre]

To my understanding, owner built the house himself, and had a design done, which appears to have been conceived based on him winning the lottery. He has a $100K design, and wants to impliment in $5000 pieces. And, unfortunately, value of the home doesn't justify a $100K landscape.

[kinnanscaping]

Touche to what the others have said about the large nurseries and firms. Bottom line is that they are not pushing landscapes, they are pushing plants. I had a similar scenario: guy had a design, liked the main ideas, but didn't want to pay the $10K! For the space he had, he only needed half the plants drawn, and there were about two selections that were questionable. Long story short, the reason the guy didn't go with them OR with me was that he didn't value the work and didn't want to pay. He went with another company that was $600 less than my bid. Good riddance. So, keep in mind the reason why the guys has waited four years, has a rr tie wall in the first place (ugly and cheap imo), and is coming to you.

[Fine Edge]

Not to bad mouth any LA's out there but we are in the process of "fixing" a reputable LA's gross injustice to the design world.
Otto Luyken Laurels at 3' O.C. with an allowable growing area of only 3' wide, Spirea placed on the shadiest side of the house, Camellia Japonica placed out in the hot afternoon Western sun, European Hornbeam placed 5' off the front foundation, almost all plants, regardless of their species, centered on 3' spacing (Tinus Viburnum, W. Coast Schip Laurel, Grey Owl Juniper, etc..)
Just right to create the "jungle scene".
Plenty of Barberry, Needlepoint Holly & yucca placed next to pathways so my clients 3 young kids can play with them.
And let's not forget about the total lack of vision for the pool area. A classic combination of pom-pom juniper, spiral juniper, yucca, weeping cherry, palms and assorted other garbage.
All for a planting cost in excess of $250,000.
Our revisions, respacing & redesign will get him down to around $60,000.

Then again, sometimes the clients don't know any better. "The plan looks sooooo good with all those symbols, doesn't it honey?"

Do your customer a favor and point out the items that you know won't work and tell him why they won't work. If he still doesn't believe you, have him visit here for a night!!!

Good Luck!

[Terre]

I'm a bigger fan of a 'lushly' planted look as opposed to minimalistic, but this isn't even that. I hadn't really looked closely at the rest of this design, I had been focusing on the areas he wanted to start with, but after you mentioned nurserys pushing Austrian Pine and Aspens, I went back and looked. On approx. 1 acre, this guy has used 13 Aus. Pines and 7 Aspen. According to the logo on the plan, he doesn't work for a nursery, but geez!

Much as I'd hate to have someone else critique my plans without being able to explain the logic behind my choices, I really just have to think this guy either had no clue or didn't care. There are indications on the plans that make me believe he had no intention of doing the install, so maybe he just didn't care.

And Kinnanscaping? If you think those rr tie walls are bad, you should see the other side of the house! I'm thinking vines, lots of vines! And wondering what will happen when those walls disintigrate, as RR Ties eventually do. Bad choice for economy.

This guy is eventually going to pay me about $30K for this entire thing, without the inground, enclosed 20x30 pool, he just doesn't know it yet.

[agla]

It sounds like a pretty poor planting design to me as well.

One thing to consider is that if you follow the plan, the liability is on the LA (or designer that the client refers to as an LA - any stamp on the plan?). If you tweak the plan without correcting all of the mistakes, the liability is on you.

You probably have a client who is emotionally attached to this plan. He probably would only tolerate some tweaking and not wholesale changes. I think you are safer following the plan, but make damn sure you keep a copy of it and reference it in your contract. The client will be happy (at least on the short term) and you will not be downsizing the job.

Or, decide that you will only do the job if you can take ALL the corrective action necessary. You might lose the job because of the client's emotional attachment, but you'll have your integrity.

In defense of the LA profession, the better ones find out pretty quickly that they can not work for people whose home or income can not justify the expense of paying someone what is necessary to do a nice landscape plan. In other words, no one with a $20k budget is going to spend $3k of that on the design. That means that when you run into an LA who is working on medium to low priced homes, it is because he is not good enough to keep busy with people who can afford a better one. If you are a landscaper who does not do $50k landscape jobs, almost any LA you run into will not be a good one.

Look for a stamp on the plan. It might not be an LA.

[sandim]

Overplanting and underplanning is such a problem. That was really nice of the designer to think about the barberry's, holly and yucca in your job Fine Edge! Well, you could look at it this way, there will be no worries keeping the kids out of the beds!!
Terre, you obviously have the right idea. As Agla said, if you install the plans as dictated by the design, the responsibility falls back to the LA, however, who knows where this clown will be in 5 years or so when your rr ties give way and everything becomes a big mosh pit. Also if you don't correct everyting responsibility like agla said is on you, but it sounds like you have it all figured out so no worries! Sounds like you knew what to do all along, but I agree, it's nice to think something and have GTX back it up!

[GLAN]

There's only been 1 Architect design that I ever appreciated.

Many are as if they threw darts at the plans hanging on a wall....

If the design is so poor.....and I can't convince to do the corrections......I walk away.......All the headaches and responsiblity falls onto me......not the Architect

[Terre]

Agla, the plan simply says on it, Tim XXX designs, LLC Landscape Architecture. From that, I assumed he was a LA. Following the plan completely isn't an option. He can't afford it. For what I am doing for him, at this point, I think I can let him believe we are using the basic plan, but change the plantings to something I'm not uncomfortable with.

I've already convinced the client not to go with the aspens. He doesn't even know what most of the other things on the plan actually are, so I doubt I'll have much issues convincing him to use other plants. He's already changed some of the bones of the plan himself, and to give credit(?) where credit is due, the RR tie walls are not on the plan,those are the homeowners fault.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but if I do this job, I will definitely modify my contract to specifically indicate that all I am doing is planting and accept no responsibility for anything other than that.