[johnkeegan]

Just had a red maple that was to be delivered and when it showed up I noticed the leaves were simply going from green to yellow, no red. And since it was a 5.5" caliper and I didn't want a disappointed customer asking me to take it out after planting, I opted to send it back. Now the salesman says it's normal for the red fall color to not be there after transplanting. Any opinions out there on this? I just didn't want to a disappoint a customer who just paid almost $2,000 for a red maple with no red.

[Stonehenge]

Was it a Schwedler or maybe a Deborah?

[TrickyDick]

I haven't seen that- mostly I see early color and leaf drop. It makes sense though. Acer rubrum is a fall digging hazard so it will be under a lot of stress. The red pigment in the leaves, unlike yellow, is only produced in the fall as sugars build up in the leaves so if the tree stops producing a lot of sugars because of extreme stress you could get yellow instead of red fall color.

You could ask the nursery to guarantee the color.

[johnkeegan]

It was actually spring dug but the same could hold because the tree could not produce the sugars as usual due to the stress (especially such a large tree). Besides the salesman said it was kept in a shaded area.
As far as the type, the bill said Red Sunset.

[treedoc1]

The fall color you see now is the fall color you will always have.

You are depending on all the right people keeping track of all the correct information going back to the grafter, then the liner sale to the grower had it correct, then the grower to the nursery keeping track correctly, then the loading crew grabbing from the right row in the yard. That's a lot of room for error...

Its not a hydrangea that you can shift from red to blue.

It's true that the red pigment is related to sugar production and a more acidic sap in the leaf as in sumac or red maple tends toward the red, but a Red Sunset or October Glory is genetically identical to the originals and won't show the variability that a straight Acer rubrum will.

Buyer beware

[johnkeegan]

Those were some of my concerns Treedoc. But, of course, now when I go to buy a "Red Sunset" in spring, I'll probably be rolling the dice even more.

[Hamons]

In my area -- yellow leaf coloring on red maples is priamrily a maganese problem -- caused by a high pH making it unavailable to the plant. Soil injected manganese can fix this pretty quick.

[VoodooChile]

I was taught-- 4th grade maybe-- that the carotenes in leaves are water soluble, and during wet years they will wash out of the leaves, making for muted reds or outright yellows.

Has it been raining alot by you john?

[johnkeegan]

It has been wet but the local trees are plenty red. Again, this tree was dug earlier and at the nursery since spring I believe.

[Greensmith]

Over-irrigated maybe?

[TrickyDick]

I may be sticking my neck out here arguing with someone named "treedoc" about trees but here goes...

This is the short version of the story as I understand it. Yellow and orange pigments are always present in the leaves in amounts that are determined mostly by genetics. When chlorophyl is prevented from reaching the leaves in the fall the underlying yellow or orange shows through. This happens without regard to environmental factors. Most red pigments on the other hand contain a sugar as part of thier chemical makeup and are produced only in the fall as excess sugar builds up in the leaves. Two of the most important factors in sugar production are sunlight and moisture. Any tree can show a lot of variability in fall color through it's life. In a drought year you will see crappy fall color. Same thing if you have excessively cloudy weather in early fall. Look at the yellow leaves on the inner branches of some red maples where the leaves don't get as much sun.

So I don't think it's true that the color you see is the color you will get. A six inch tree being dug and losing eighty or ninety percent of its root mass will definately experience drought stress in a nursery. Combine that with being located in the shade at the nursery and it seems logical that what you are seeing is the least intense fall color that the tree is likely to show. When established in it's new site in the sun it should but better. How much better is anyone's guess though.

[johnkeegan]

Thanks for the thorough explanation Tricky.

[treedoc1]

Your first sentence says it all...genetically predetermined...an overall yellow cast to a red maple in fall has more to do with the amount of pigments predisposed in the tree, over the year to year variances in water and temperature.

Walking fields of trees of specific cultivars, on different soil types will show some shades of variation as a whole, not individual yellows or oranges or reds as microenvironments.

The cultivared red maples are predisposed to having higher concentrations of sugar in the leaves that turns to anthocyanins that are the reds. These sugars are from the photosynthetic reactions...the cultivars have inherently a greater concentration of sugars that can turn to anthocyanins than a straight non-cultivar. In simple terms, the shortening days and cool nights of autumn trigger changes in the tree. One of these changes is the growth of a corky membrane between the branch and the leaf stem. This membrane interferes with the flow of nutrients into and out of the leaf. The sugars increase in the leaf, the chlorophyll production declines, the anthocyanins show through. The reds aren't washed out of the leaf by irrigation. The root loss by digging the tree exhibits itself as smaller leaf size and lesser amounts of leaf tissue overall...the chemical makeups and concentrations inside the leaf remain intact for the most part.

A smaller than normal leaf because of the stress from digging will exhibit the similar fall color of the tree leaf 2 years in the future as a larger leaf from a tree not under as much stress.

If all this wasn't true, why do we all pay extra money for the improved cultivars and not just play games with irrigation and NPK to get color. Remember trees produce their own food from elements (photosynthesis)...you can't give them sugar water and have the sugar go into their leaves...they manufacture it themselves.

A yellowy red maple will never show the brilliance of an Autumn Blaze cultivar even planted side by side, dug the same and even in the tight confines of a wholesale yard.

[johnkeegan]

Treedoc, Thanks, as well. I'm learning a lot.
So you don't believe that the production of those sugars that cause the "red" are affected by by the trauma of both transplanting (especially on such a large speciman) and being in the shade. Anecdotally, it seems as if Burning Bushes in the shade are not nearly as red as those in full sun. And, I suspect the red fall color is determined by similar "anthocyanins."
And it seems other plants with the red pigments (heucheras, barberries..) in their leaves are not as red (or maroon) when they're in a shaded area.
Thanks again.

[treedoc1]

We were talking about the difference between a red maple and a corresponding cultivar regarding the coloration.

A second discussion about how red two identical plants respond to different growing conditions:

Two EAC's one in shade one in sun. More chlorophyll production in the sunnier plant = more sugars available in fall = a redder plant. No genetic advantage from a cultivar selected for redder color in the side by side comparison.

Red barberry grown in the shade is not as red as a full sun plant = more chlorophyll needed to "catch" the light for sugar production because of the limited light = a greener cast. A different case than fall color. Think of a variegated plant in the full shade like leucothe...variegations not as striking as in the full sun.