[syzer]

Hey guys, I hope some of your experienced landscape construction/design guys can give me a hand.

The problem is that I am having difficulty extending my business into the design/install field. Though we have done a few decent size installs this year, and our customers very satisfied, I have not been satisfied. I want landscapes that really wow the customer and others.

Right now, its myself, my brother (and partner), and we have 3 full time employees as well as a few temp helpers when we need them. If we get a call on a large landscape project its always a huge pita to get things in place for the bid and here is why.

Neither of us have any real knowledge of plants other then just basic. So that leaves me getting a designer to take care of this for me. We ran into a girl at the nursery who has done everything thus far and does ok, but she is only a perennial garden designer. I need someone who can design all aspects of landscaping such as patios, walls, drainage, types of plants for soil conditions etc. I have called a few landscape designers before, but they want like 3k for a design and 100 an hour for consultation. I don't mind paying but I obviously cannot absorb that cost. How do I go about passing this kind of money onto the customer.

In other words, how do I jump this hurdle. We are pretty busy with our maintenance work, and this is just a huge hurdle we need to pass and its adding an incredible amount of stress. I know there are some of you out there who have been here, so please if you don't mind post here or drop me a line cpasko@comcast.net .

Thanks ahead! I look forward to getting some incite on this situation!

[PSUscaper]

Answer.....it takes time.

Like my post about 'too many options'.....bottom line is, I don't have the 'wow' effect to walk up to a job and and give someone a 5k price for a 150 sq ft walkway.......though I would like too, it ain't gonna happen.

I deffinetly understand your frustration, but the bottom line is, rome was not built in a day.

You sound like you are way ahead of yourself already. One lesson I've learned very well is that if you don't have the knowledge or man power to do the job, then you shouldn't be doing it.

If you don't have a designer, then why are you getting involved with this job. Yes, you are gonna pay out the kazoo for plans, so live with it.

And if you get a designer who's any good, you're gonna pay him a lot of money also, and then, be forced to have the work to keep him busy.

the story you speak has been heard a million times. I started out doing nothing but construction, and I'm still working on the same hurdle, so when i hear about maintenance companies complaining about the slowness of their construction division, I have to laugh.

It sounds like you are one, or maybe both of the following things. A, you are still too busy running maintenance and can't spend the time needed for construction. B, you lack the advanced knowledge to truly launch the construction side.

I would think about backing down on the construction and taking on smaller projects untill you get people who truly know what they are doing. This, is not going to be easy though.

You said yourself that you lack the basic understanding of plant material. This makes it tougher, as the chances of someone else in the company learning it is slim as there is no one to teach them.

In other words, if you want someone to know what they are doing, you gonna have too....GULP......hire someone who is smarter than you. Either that, or start educating yourself or a existing employee.

At this point, you may need to hire someone, and again, GULP.....pay them more than what you make to get the work done. It sounds scary, but isn't that the way it works.

Unless you get yourself up to par on construction, you aren't going to find a miracle worker who will come in for slightly average pay and take care of all the technical problems your having.

The bottom line....educate yourself more, or pay a lot of money to someone more edcucated than you.

[site]

Your local landscape association may offer a plant ID class. If I were you I would also go to an ICPI seminar. The school of hard knocks has an excellent curriculum too. And lastly you will get a lot more respect if you hire experts (like a good designer) to fill in the gaps where you lack knowledge.

[syzer]

Thanks for the insightful post Penn! We have been very close to over our head on a few projects but have always made it out unscathed luckily!

I always hire things out that I am not very knowledgeable in because the image of my company is a lot more important then me worrying about the cost of hiring someone more knowledgeable in the field.

I obviously cant hire a designer now I don't have the work to keep them busy. I was just curious as to how you guys jumped the hurdle. I mean did you just hire a pro designer or a la and pay the fat money they require or how did you start to go into it.

Thanks again!

[site]

You can sub out the design work on a job by job basis.

[syzer]

Yeah, thats what I am trying to do. The problem is the only one I could actually get in touch with was wanting 3k a design, even on little guys where the whole job would be maybe 5-7k. It just didn't seem right. Also on top of that the 100$ per hour consultation fee.

Is that what you find yourself paying, or anyone here for that matter?

[syzer]

BTW I have a partner who is my brother. We are both very capable, but one can filling for the other while one of us goes on to educate ourself on this subject. What would you guys suggest?

[TrickyDick]

First thing is you don't have to necessarily go anywhere to learn plants, though it helps. There are a lot of great books out there and you can start by reading and making a point to visit nurseries, look around and ask a lot of questions. But like Penn says there is nothing but experience and education for it and both take time.

Second- if someone is asking for that kind of dough to design a 5k job they are either a) so busy they don't really want the work and just throwing it out to see of you'll bite, b) well established, high priced and out of your league for the moment or c) taking you for a sucker. My guess would be "b". That said, 3k is not unreasonable for an average size property design and $100/hour is okay for someone who has been around a while. I guarantee you that there are dozens of young or new to the business designers in the Baltimore area who are struggling to find someone to help them install thier work. Find them and try to get a couple of good relationships going. They can bring you work and you can bring it to them.

Third- you shouldn't be thinking about "absorbing" any cost of design work. If a client needs a design done they should pay for it and they should know that up front. If you hook up with a newer designer the cost shouldn't be too much and you can grow into bigger and better work together.

[PSUscaper]

Don't take this the wrong way......

Besides running my own business, I've done design work for about 10-15 different contractors in my area. Some are multi million dollar companies, others are 100k companies.

As the years go on, I've always noticed that the guys calling me to do a landscape design for a 3k foundation planting have NO idea what they are doing. Am I saying they don't know what they are doing.....no.

What I'm saying is, they never educated themselves on what they are doing. I've been working with a few guys who have been in business for 10 years.......and you know what....they still can't put together a 5k foundation planting design. How is this possible?

I see it too often. Maintenance companies forcing themselves into construction in the hopes of 'greener pastures' awaiting them. Well, guess what, that is not the case.

For the amount of time these guys have spent building a construction company, they in all likely hood, could have built one hell of a maintenance company.

What I just want to say is why do you want to do construction? Have you maxed out maintenance? Are you just bored with cutting grass and need to do something different.

Running a construction business is no different than running a mowing company....its still all about business.

If you are really moving into construction because you find it interesting, then you should be educating yourself. Successfull construction companies are successfull for one of two reasons. First one, they LOVE what they do, and eat, breath, sleep landscaping.

The second reason is, they are just good business people. They may not have a care about what it is their business does. They are just good at running a business, keeping numbers where they should be, and good at dealing with their clients.

What I want to ask you is why are you moving into construction. It seems like you have little knowledge at this point, and are quite shaky with the business end. Why are you so anxious to jump into construction?

If you consider the time, money, and effort it is going to take to make the move, would it not be possible to expand the exis. business you have and get the same financial rewards?

[syzer]

Hey Tricky you are right. Just from the past few years I have learned an immense amount about plants and have a decent knowledge of what does well around here, and also what likes shade/full sun/moist/dry conditions etc. I really need to build on that quit a bit though. I learn quit a bit from the nursery and from other landscapes in the area.

As far as the LA I was only able to find one LA in the area whom only designs and does not do installs which I feel more comfortable working with. I will have to ask around. On larger landscaping jobs I will pay 3k and the consultation fees no problem. The customer is buying the plan and if they have our company install it of course it comes off the back end if not they pay for their plan (well either way they are paying for it). We have just been working with a designer who is very familiar with perennials and is very good with them, but lacks the knowledge when it comes to other segments of a well planned landscape such as hardscaping, and other things.


Penn,

I am not worried about the greener pastures, things are rarely greener on the other side. I just love landscaping and landscape construction as well as all aspects that deal with it. I like to deal with drainage challenges, different environmental challenges, and playing with large machinery. I truly love the work which is why I want to make the move toward that direction.

I did not mean the thread to come across maybe the way it maybe has, but more for the sake of trying to get over the whole design hurdle. We can handle foundation plantings with some perennials, annuals, etc. What I am wanting to do if offer incredible landscapes with everything wrapped up in it from the drainage to the landscape lighting to the water features etc. We can handle without a problem the whole construction side and have done so in the past. While in no way are we experts, we are only concerned with the design aspect. I have been unable to find someone as Tricky referred to above, though that is exactly what I have been trying to find its been a slow arduous task thus far.

I guess the best way is to just continue my quest to find a designer whom I can build a working relationship with and grow from there while educating myself all the while.

Thanks for all the insightful information!

[syzer]

I am just looking forward to the day I can walk in and design something like this that Jon Kar (from this board) has done here. Very impressive

[waterfall larry]

I did not mean the thread to come across maybe the way it maybe has, but more for the sake of trying to get over the whole design hurdle.

So chris, let’s sum up things. You said that the landscape design part was what you were having trouble with. Whenever you have a problem there is a certain process you want to go through. The first step is to realize you have a problem. The nest step is to define what it is. The next step is to form a list of solutions that is as thorough as possible. Once you have the list you pick 3 or 4 solutions that you think are the best solutions. So you have stated your problem. There has been some discussion so far about some solutions. To summarize your solutions are the following.
1 subcontract landscape design work
2 hire a landscape designer full time as an employee
3 go learn how to do landscape design yourself
now chris you know you and your abilities best so what are your thoughts on these 3 solutions? Which one would you be most able to do. Then you should ask the board members to give their thoughts on the pros and cons of each of these 3 solutions.

[syzer]

Hey Larry good to hear from you.


As of right now, my only solution is step #1, while doing step #2 since I reallly want to educate myself in all aspects of design.

[Raj Venugopal]

Syzer,

Do you have pics of any of the jobs that you've done that you're particularly proud of?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on what you liked about them, and what sorts of things you'd like to start including in your installs.

Cheers,
Raj

[trees]

This is just my opinion here, but I think that in order for you to make that jump completely, you're going to need to have a designer on staff. Period.

I know there are plenty of people that go the sub route, but, like you said, it's gonna have to be a pretty high-end job to justify the cost of bringing in a professional that feeds his/her family solely on the designs.

One thing I'm noticing here, though, is that you're maybe not sure that either you or your brother have what it takes to get the designs to where you want them to be. There's no shame in that. Not everyone has a latent designer inside. Some of the best installers I've known couldn't do design work. On the flip side... I'm a much better designer and teacher than I am installer. Know your strengths and work to add the pieces to your company that will help you toward your vision.

Maybe you need to strictly sub out work until the right designer comes along, but if you want to continue down that road, I think it's imperative you find someone that can match your vision of quality work and make it a reality. And, you're going to need to pay them well to do it. People that can do all those things well aren't just floating around in the ether.

Good luck to you.