[Nathaniel Carr]

Does anyone have experience with alternative work weeks? We have some jobs that are a hour or so away and they can take us a few weeks to finish. My foreman suggested that we work 4/10 instead of 5/8's. I pay the guys to drive and I am trying to make these jobs pay a little better. Any thoughts?

[AZTLANLC]

You have a good foreman.
I sometimes run into that dilemma myself and have thinking of buying a van or maybe pay one guy for picking up everybody and bring them to the job site and start the clock there.
If is just couple of jobs a year just build it into your cost for that project.

[Nathaniel Carr]

I will charge for drive time at slightly above cost, but drive time is always OT and I hate paying OT because it skews everything, insurance and withholdings. Plus it burns my butt paying people to just sit there and do nothing, or worse, take a nap.

The real issue I am wondering about is about job productivity. It seems that 4/10 will make less of a burden on the drive time. But will the productivity of the job go up or down? Will people be spent by thursday? Will they be spent by 4 pm?

If anyone runs their crews like this, chime in.

[LandArts]

We've evolved to where the crew usually works a four day week. Built-in weather day helps keep us on schedule. If the forecast really calls for rain sometimes we'll just take that day off...saves me paying travel time for only a half day's work.

[GLAN]

^ That's reasonable thinking.


As for the driving time......You don't have to pay them for drive time.......not by law.

Only if you have a driver..........It's no different than they driving their own car to their place of employment.

Here's the exception...........Lets suppose you have a job that is 1 hour away from your yard.....Your driver is paid for all clock time......he/she drives.....Now lets suppose that one of the laborers before leaving the yard.....he gets gas for cans....or loads a truck with material.....anything work related..........You have to compensate for that time......This also comes into play when returning to the yard after driving for an hour.

If they just get in the truck and go in the morning.....or jump off and go home at the end of the day.........Technicaly......you are not responsible for compensating them for that time traveled.

I know of a guy that does that for one of the trips of a day.

[Matt Kulp]

We run the 4 day work week the same as Landarts, for much of the same reasons. One other benefit I have found is that giving the guys an extra day off keeps them fresh for Monday. Also, it is soooo much easier on scheduling, due to having the alternate day to work with for job overages, weather, etc..

[agla]

I worked for a company that had a staggered 4/10 work week. Some guys worked Mon-Thurs and others worked Wed-Sat. Six days of production and no overtime.

I always wondered how that might work out if the crews rotated every two weeks. That way you'd have a 1 day weekend one week and a 5 day weekend the next - like a minivacation every other week. That is one way to make a happy crew, if they don't screw it up. It might be a good way to attract some of the competitions better help as well. I approached my boss with the idea, but he had no doubt that the crew would screw it up. It worked out well for me because I wound up doing 6/10's more often than not.

[johnkeegan]

I must say that it seems inherently unfair to not pay for drive time. My time is valuable to me and I expect people to respect that. We all complain about waiting at the doctors office for an hour or waiting for the cable guy to show up or flight delays etc. Why then is it OK for us to not respect our employees time by making them sit in a truck for 2 hours per day without compensation?

[GLAN]

Originally Posted by johnkeegan

I must say that it seems inherently unfair to not pay for drive time. My time is valuable to me and I expect people to respect that. We all complain about waiting at the doctors office for an hour or waiting for the cable guy to show up or flight delays etc. Why then is it OK for us to not respect our employees time by making them sit in a truck for 2 hours per day without compensation?

If the work day is cut short by 2 hours........how is that expense recovered?

Sure....factor it into the price of the job.......That might put your bid out of the running....

Whether you do or don't........that's up to you.



Or.....you could adjust the hourly pay rate

[Nathaniel Carr]

I am finishing up the company manual right now, it is still in progress, but I have included a section that says that we work 8 hrs at our jobsites. In the past I would start getting guys saying that it was time to pick up. At 3 pm. It just makes me sick to think the customer is watching out their window while we pick up, before the school bus lets her kids out. That is only a 7 hr day. 6.5 if you count lunch and 6 if you count breaks, and 5.75 if you count the time trickling into and out of break. So I really want everyone to know this year when we show up at a site at 8 we leave at 4. But if we showed up at 8 and left at 5 and unloaded by 6 I would have 4/11 and that would be ok. I think I am gonna try it on a long distance job, or maybe one week with a lot of cleanups. Thanks.

[Mac]

I usually begin the year with close, usually over 4/10s. By the end of the year, its usually at least 5/10s.

[agla]

I think it is hard for some of you to see the other side of the coin - the perspective of the worker. Some guys want to work lots of hours and get lots of over time. But most of the guys working landscape are in their early to mid twenties. They like their time off. An aweful lot of them would rather work four tens and have a three day weekend. That can also attract good people from other companies who might be lured by that four day weekend.

Couple that with more hours per day (read that as more hours for every time you load and go and return and unload) without overtime and it starts to make more sense. Split your crews into Mon-thur and wed-Sat and you have six long days of production with two days of twice as many guys (your mow days?). If management is thin, you could give them the OT to run all six days. Your supervisors might be older with more responsibilities (family) and want the OT.

You just have to try and figure what will work best for you and what might help your hiring and retaining of good help. A better work force is an advantage and if you have a more attractive situation than other guys, you'll get their help. Word spreads fast when someone hears that someone else has a better job situation.

[synner]

An aweful lot of them would rather work four tens and have a three day weekend.

We've done this from year to year, depending on the crew and the work load. Most of the time we have a favourable response as the crew know they are always getting a long weekend - weather permitting. To top it off every once and a while we'd go Mon - Thurs and Tues to Sat the next week providing a 4 day weekend. Sometimes they come back fresh other times they are drained from too much party and R & R.

[johnkeegan]

Word spreads fast when someone hears that someone else has a better job situation.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I think we should be wary of that when we do things like not paying employees for drive time to the jobsite. You could lose a quality new employee or an experienced one quickly over that policy. It would be wise to check individually with each employee to hear what they REALLY think about that policy. I know my guys wouldn't go for it. I assume they can do the math and I always assume they talk to employees of other companies (not just landscapers) and are privy to other offers.
....and, yes, of course, the cost of that drive time is factored into the estimate. I don't expect my employees to donate their free time to make my bids work.
As far as the issue of 4/10's. That's fine as long as your existing employees agree. I had considered it on and off but, after 20+ years of doing this, I realized that whoever came up with the 8 hour day did so for a reason. Productivity (along with safety and quality) definately drop off after 8 hours of hard manual work. An occasional 10 hour day is fine but 4 in a row would wreck havoc... in my opinion.

[Nathaniel Carr]

johnkeegan,
I really appreciate your thoughts. My decision making process is usually totalitarian and then mellows into egalitarian by the time I face the masses. I still am wrestling with the 8 hr day only being 5.75 hr of work. Any thoughts?