[Pelican]

I recently ran an ad for a mowing foreman and had a young lady apply. Let me preface this thread by stating I'm not opposed to hiring a woman to work for me so I don't need to hear I'm chauvinist. I'd like some honest answers to some honest concerns. I've actually had a woman work for me in the past when I was a smaller operation.

This young lady is VERY petite, it would be safe to bet that she just cracks 5 feet tall and is under 100 lbs. I'm concerned that she would have a hard time handling a machine should something go wrong, say if it were to get stuck in mud.

My other concern is whether she'd be able to lead the crew which is the job description. The laborers in my mowing team are Hispanic and culturally they typically have little respect for women. I'm not sure how that would work out and I was wondering if any of the rest of you have faced this? Can a woman effectively manage Hispanic men who are older than she is? I'm aware this question hints of racism too, but I assure you it is not my intent. When I studied Spanish in high school, we touched on Latin culture and this was one point they mentioned. If I'm off the mark, let me know.

Currently this woman is not my first choice for other reasons. She has no management experience and limited machine skills. She can drive the truck and trailer well, and I'm getting a vibe that she has a good work attitude. I haven't eliminated her yet, but I have another candidate that more closely fills my immediate needs.

Have any of you faced these issues and how were they dealt with?

[Terre]

Pelican,

I'm about the same size as your young lady, and although I am a lot stronger than I look, or than anyone give me credit for, the lack of weight, height and reach does come into play. Most of the time, I know how to compensate for my size, but there are definitely times when size matters. And if she is young, unless she perhaps grew up on a farm doing hard work, she may not have learned yet how to compensate for her size.

I also have managed a crew of men, both Hispanic and not. My experience there was, the older workers gave me the respect of treating me as a boss. I got more attitude from the younger, especially macho types. We worked through that, and developed a decent working relationship, but it could have gone either way. I had the advantage of age, and experience in managing people. A lot will depend on how she interacts with them.

From my observations, most women, especially in their first management type position, tend to lead by committee, for lack of a better phrase. "Lets do it this way, okay?" rather than "I want you to go do that before noon" type of command. A lot of the time, this is seen as wishy washy, and she will not get any results.

[spiderlily]

I would say that "no management experience " matters more than gender and size.

I am small and female, and have no trouble managing.... even big guys, even hispanic guys, even hard-to-manage guys BUT my supervisory abilities are innate, inborn, and obvious, and have been recognized quickly in every job I ever had-- If your candidate is a good leader, does any of her previous experience reflect that?

[Stonehenge]

Around my area there are lots of all-women mowing crews, and some of them look as grizzled as the male crews.

I think that size does play a role - many moons ago when I worked for someone else I was on a mowing crew for awhile, and the walkbehinds had right and left brakes for steering that you'd lock in place if you need to pick up some debris. My machine seemed to always have one of the brakes let go - it happened once and the machine zipped onto a busy road. It took all of my 200# to horse that thing against it's will, back over the curb to safety. No way a 100# person is able to do that, male or female.

For a foreperson, mechanical ability would also seem to be important, and I'm sure MacGuiver-types who can keep the machines running through the day are what's expected for that role.

As for the management side, who's to say she could or couldn't? Remembering the union thread being discussed here reminded me of that longtime friend, a woman who runs 120# soaking wet, and regularly faces down toothless, smelly, disgusting men more than twice her size. She's fearless. At the same time, I've worked with big men who'd get bowled over by a 12 year old, their management abilities are so weak. So for her management abilities, you've got to make an educated guess.

[Pelican]

As I mentioned, she is not a candidate as foreman for the reasons listed. I would consider her as a laborer if I had the need and possibly have her work toward foreman if she showed strength in that area. I started this thread mostly out of curiosity and to collect info for the next time around.

Terre mentions her size, and that is an area which I weighed in deciding. The laws of physics would dictate that she would have trouble tipping the walk behind mower over an obstacle. You need weight to push down on the handlebars to do this and she doesn't have it. I already mentioned getting stuck in mud, this requires a little bit of height and strength to lift the machine out of the mud. Again she is lacking in height too.

I hired the candidate I referred to above this afternoon after checking his references with positive results. I plan to keep the young lady's application on file if I have an opening come about, I think she'd be a good worker outside the areas of my concern.

I'd still like to hear about others' experiences in this area.

[dan deutekom]

[dan deutekom]

In my experience it dosn't really matter about sex for management ability nor does it matter for the ability to do the job.

But in my past experience I have found woman to be excellent on lawn crews. bed planting and maintenance because they tend to be easier on equipment and much more finicky in doing the job right. I have found that they do cause a little more down time due to the need to find acceptable washroom facilities but in Urban settings that probably isn't so critical.

If you have a heavy equipment operator position I would take a woman with same qualifications as a guy anytime. The reason being that woman seem to be safer operators and much more willing to perform daily maintenance and checks on machines. And as mentioned above they generally don't abuse the equipment as much.

For labour positions in landscape installations most woman can't cut the heavy lifting all day. But then that is more a relation of size because I work with one gal that can cut it. She is almost 6' tall and weighs about 160.

[cutntrim]

I've only had a few females work for me in the past. That was many years ago and back when we were strictly maintenance, no installation work. Size and strength were a hindrance for each of them. Around here the female lawn cutters are definately not as grizzled as the guys. Mostly they work for the city. With my guys moving between maintenance and installation work on any given day, girls just aren't physically strong enough to keep up. Maybe for a while but not day after day. I don't hire weak guys either. I look for guys that are athletes (usually hockey players) as they're physically capable, can work in a team environment, and are used to taking direction from coaches.

Regardless of gender, I'm surprised you're hiring a foreman off the street. I may evaluate a person upon meeting/interviewing them as to whether they seem like they'd be possible forman material, but they've gotta work as regular laborers before I can be sure.

Jeff, that's a pretty funny visual you described with the WB getting away from you. We've always used gear drives and I know exactly what you're talking about. I get a good laugh when a guy forgets to put it in neutral then only locks one brake and the mower starts doing 360's at 90 miles an hour while they chase it around and around like a dog after their tail until they can grab the handle to lock the other brake.

[dan deutekom]

[Pelican]

I don't have any choice but to hire off the street in this case. I don't have the luxury of working with the crew, I personally oversee the construction end of my business. I do plan to train my candidate for a week myself by riding along and working with them.

I would love to promote my laborer, he's been a loyal employee for 8 years, but he just doesn't have the eye for detail, nor is he a skilled driver. We've talked about it, but he agrees that he isn't up to the job. It's unfortunate, he's advanced about as far as it seems he's going to.

[agla]

As with any foreman, if she has the .... 'tude to be a foreman she will be fine. If she doesn't, she won't which is just the same for any guy. Size and physical power don't matter at all since there are others in her control to do muscle work when it arises.

You won't make a foreman out of anyone who does not have it in him ... or her. Being a strong foreman has more to do with persona than anything else.

My father was 5'3" and about 140 soaking wet and there are not many of you who would not have jumped when he told you to do something. Some people have a commanding presence. Others don't.

Whether it is size, age, gender, or culture, some people can overcome it all and some can have it all going for them and still are not made to lead.

[stoneridge]

"The laborers in my mowing team are Hispanic and culturally they typically have little respect for women." Wow. Thanks for the lesson? I hope Hispanics don't take offence.

[cutntrim]

I hear ya' on not being able to supervise your mowing crew. I also spend the bulk of my time on installation jobs now so don't do much maintenance. But I schedule installs to begin in late May/early June so I can work hand-in-hand with the maintenance guys for the first month of the season and get everyone up to speed. Then in September when the summer students go back to school, the installation jobs slow down again so I can be onsite for maintenance. It makes for a shorter window in construction, but it's important for me to be onsite for maintenance as well.

[Pelican]

Stoneridge, I gave an explanation for my statement above. If you take a realistic look at different cultures around the world, you will find that in some women do not receive the same respect as they do here in the USA. My hope was that the members of this Board would see my statement in that light rather than try to make a different type of issue with it. And again, if it is incorrect, I'd like to hear that as well.

[Dale Wiley]

Hire attitude - teach skill.

One of my daughters friends is about 120# and 5'6. She is a sherrifs deputy and rounitely makes 250# moronic young males come to there senses and cooperate with her. Words, increasing levels of demands, and increased agression, and did you know that there are places on the human body where a simple finger pressure will completley incapacitate you ??

If your younger Hispanic workers, or your "other"younger workers have an issue with any supervisory person, they are up for a transfer to the competitors. That attitude don't cut it.

Our office manager / controller ( I.E. check signer) instructs anybody (including me, but I have to sleep with her ) it gets done. We have a great training program and the peer pressure is great, and the problems few.