Ground Trades Xchange - a landscaping forum

Go Back   Ground Trades Xchange - a landscaping forum > The Front Office > Management and Personnel Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 01:27 PM
Seedling
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
USDA
Posts: 140
Bexter is an unknown quantity at this point
Pay scale- Designers

Pay scale for Designers

Background …

Last year 2 LAT’s were paid an hourly wage ….They did no estimating but would help with the presentation. This year they will be expected to design, estimate (we had a estimating program especially tailored to our needs and will be very easy to use)and sell the job as well as going out with supervisors before the start of the job. The other LA we use has his own gig going , but when he designs for us it is under the company name … I won’t include him in this.

Proposed is this …
 base salary of $1500.00 per month based on 40 work week
 3% of sale on first 200k
 4% after first 200k
 15% of Design – if Design only


Does anyone have any experience in this type of Pay Scale? Does it seem in line?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 01:35 PM
Stonehenge's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
USDA Zone 4
Posts: 7,564
Stonehenge is on a distinguished road
Lanelle recently put together a guideline herself for that kind of employee. I don't know the level of experience of those two, but the base seems a bit low. The percentages are close to what Lanelle put together.

What kind of experience do these two bring to the table?



And I'm always curious about this - how do you guys handle lead generation? Does the designer have a say in the marketing budget?



Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 01:52 PM
Seedling
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
USDA
Posts: 140
Bexter is an unknown quantity at this point
The one LAT has been with us for about 6 years... the other is 2nd year out of 2 year community college program.

No they don't have much say in marketing. I was going to say that we do very little advertising but there are some major things that bring work to us ...some don't cost a cent others cost a huge amount.
* Same location for over 35 years.
 A morning TV show monthly at the greenhouse.
 Bob does a weekly radio show.
 We have a weather station on top of the greenhouse. This is seen on TV 3 times a day all year round. You know ..it’s now 4 degrees at Salisbury. This was expensive.
 Numerous events in the community and weekly at the greenhouse.

I think you may be right about the base salary … I’m the one they came to and complained that it doesn’t seem enough.
.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 03:58 PM
Lanelle's Avatar
Ranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern VA
USDA Zone 7
Posts: 1,239
Lanelle is on a distinguished road
The difficulty in discussing pay is the variance in cost of living issues and also the currency (CAN vs US). I'm going to say the following from memory but I'll look in the ALCA publication later when I have a chance.

You can set up base salary and commissions in various ways and yours looks pretty good. I would agree that the base looks low but I don't pay a mortgage in Salisbury, so what do I know?

As I recall, ALCA suggests a total compensation of 11 - 15% of gross sales.

The other thing to look at is gross profit. Anyone can sell lots of 'cheap' work that you lose money on. If you pay commission after losing money, you won't be happy for long. I recommend a condition of profitability be included, within reason. Some things can go badly that are not the designer's fault, but diligence is expected. No one is perfect but some try to 'hide' cost elements to arrive at a low bid number. If these people have not been responsible for putting together $$ numbers, some training should be underway to help them do an accurate job of putting together estimates/bids. Oh, and buy them each a calculator.
Even the best estimating program will fail if they put in the wrong numbers.
__________________
Lanelle
http://www.progrounds.com
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 05:35 PM
Seedling
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
USDA
Posts: 140
Bexter is an unknown quantity at this point
Great point on the profit Lanelle... I left out a final step in the process and that is ... ALL estimates will go to a "higher up" for checking before they go to the client. This will take extra time but a I think it is a necessary step.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 06:56 PM
Lanelle's Avatar
Ranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern VA
USDA Zone 7
Posts: 1,239
Lanelle is on a distinguished road
As everyone gets comfortable with the situation, you might allow estimates under a certain threshold to go out without review once a designer has proven their estimating ability. This is an incentive to be good at estimating. Also, will there be a limit on how small a job they or your company will be involved in doing?
__________________
Lanelle
http://www.progrounds.com
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 09:45 PM
Ranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chicago
USDA Zone 5
Posts: 1,558
Paul is on a distinguished road
Not to get away from the topic, but estimating programs do have failures, Now my companies, use these programs but the estimators have control over certain numbers. We don't trust all this to computers. Most all of our "takeoffs are done with computers but finial numbers are adjusted according to site conditions, travel and other factors that no computer can take in to account.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2003, 10:12 PM
Seedling
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
USDA
Posts: 140
Bexter is an unknown quantity at this point
Lanelle ... they will still do some design only.

Before our construction crews are involved there is a 3k minimum, but maintenance crews do some under that... with those small jobs the designers never see them.

Paul great topic you brought up ..hope you don't mind that i started a new thread on it.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2003, 11:22 PM
JAA's Avatar
JAA JAA is offline
Honorary Ranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
USDA
Posts: 12
JAA is an unknown quantity at this point
The salary seems abit low to me... although we go with 3% with no graduation at any level. One caveat we use, is that jobs under $1500 are not commissionable, and the job MUST turn a profit for the commission to be payable. If it's a loser, no commission, however we feel it's our Landscape Ops Mgr's job to establish pricing guidelines that will ensure profitability.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2003, 11:22 PM
agla's Avatar
Gold Oak Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cape Cod
USDA Zone 6
Posts: 1,324
agla is on a distinguished road
As an LA that is paid by the hour with no commissions, I think there is advantages to just a good hourly wage to both the employer and employee.

Although it would seem on the surface that % of sales would be a big motivator and cause more sales to happen, you might want to look at more than just sales. If the business is large enough and busy enough all year long that is one thing, but many landscape design/build companies have peak sales times and then peak production times and then times when you need to focus on marketing, ... When you have the % of sales incentive, you may be grooming great potential into a narrow focus. An incentive in one direction may also be a disincentive in all others.

In my case, I will spend most of my time in the next three months doing design and sales. By the end of that time we will be so backlogged that I will be far more important for the company to have me manage jobs and personnel than to be focused on more sales. In the winter I market our services more like planting seeds than closing sales. I also look for ways to use other skills that I have to keep us noticed by the right builders, architects, and engineers like presenting mitigation plans in front of conservation commissions. All these things add up to strengthen the company. Most of them are subtle and take effort, flexibilty, and vision that would not be there if my pay was more sales dependent.

My pay is dependent on how I effect the bottom line. Getting paid overtime when it is needed is incentive to push myself. Being depended upon more and more every day is good incentive for my employer to see that my wage keeps me loyal and relentless.

Will a designer take a couple of hours to train the new office person how to use a software if it keeps him from his commission? Will he be answering the phone call from the guy whose job was completed last fall that has maintenance questions or do you have to, or an inarticulate crew member? What about one designer needing help that the other designer is the most qualified to give? Will he enable a potential competitor for commissions?

It is a given that if sales aren't made you will not be around. Consider paying them what they are worth by the hour. If they don't produce get rid of them. Make sure that they know that with success comes reward. An occaisional bonus gives them hope and motivation. If it is not tied to a particular act it motivates in every direction. It works on me.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2003, 10:43 AM
Stonehenge's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
USDA Zone 4
Posts: 7,564
Stonehenge is on a distinguished road
Agla, wonderful post!

I've heard it said and repeat it often - "Incent the behavior you want."

My uttering that is usually followed by "I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Have you?"

It sounds like your employer is in the enviable position of having an employee who takes ownership in what he's doing - and that is a rare commodity, no matter what industry, or what level we're talking about. For a person like that, as long as wage/salary is at the level that person expects, they have no need for any other carrots to pull them forward. Doing a good job is the reward. Helping build a better company is the reward. My wife is like that.

However, I know that many skilled employees do not have that internal drive to do well for the sake of doing well. In those cases I think incentives are needed, but man, they are tricky, slippery, quadruple-edged swords. You mentioned what can happen when incentive plans are deployed.

I'll share a quick, true story about a mining company in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I don't recall the name of the mining company, but I can verify the truth of the story - my grandfather was a miner in the Copper Country at the company in question, many, many years ago.

This mining company wanted to increase ore production out of their mines, and so they thought they'd try an incentive plan. The incentive was simple and effective: For every X cars or ore you produce over a certain amount in a given period, each man gets $Y.

The plan began to work beautifully - the men, now focused on the same goal as the rest of the company, had figured out that drilling shallower holes and putting a smaller charge in the hole would result in less destruction and more ore. Production went up 5%. Then 10%. Then 20%. The mining company was making a killing, and everyone was happy.

But the mgt of the company was starting to look at the bonus dollars going out and thought "Hey, those miners are making too much money now. We need to change the incentives so that they don't take home quite as much. They're making as much as some of us!!"

So mgt took a look at production times, materials used, equipment and the rest, and saw that very little dynamite was being used, and that a given amount of dynamite was producing a good deal of ore. So they decided to change the incentive to be based on dynamite usage. Now, for every X sticks of dynamite used, each man gets $Y.

I probably don't need to tell you what happened, but I will anyway. Now every hole was drilled as deep as it could be drilled, and dynamite was packed full into every hole, blasting everything in sight to smithereens. Ore, now broken into pieces small enough you'd have to pan for them, was much more difficult to recover, so ore production dropped like a stone.

Not surprisingly, the miners were enjoying their highest levels of incentive yet. The incentive plans were soon eliminated. Morale soared.

Down the road 10-20 years, enough corporate bungles saw the company go bankrupt.

This was a simple example, but all kinds of derivations of that can happen when incentives are used - I've been working on a plan myself off and on for about 2 years, and hope to deploy it, as soon as I feel it is 'dynamite proof'.

Last edited by Stonehenge : 03-05-2003 at 10:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2003, 06:37 AM
agla's Avatar
Gold Oak Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cape Cod
USDA Zone 6
Posts: 1,324
agla is on a distinguished road
A few years ago I worked as an intern where the guy that was supposed to be helping me was on commission. He would hardly give me the time of day. I did not stay simply because there was no guidance from anyone because they were all following their own carrots. Everyone was "me first" and so will never be able to keep a team player.

By the way, I had my own landscape company a few years back. I new that I would pay a lot to someone that would share the interest of the company and help manage it. Now I am that pperson for someone else, get a good check each and every week that is not reinvested in the company, and I leave it all behind me as I lgo out the door each afternoon. ...my taxes are done at home in an hour.

Last edited by agla : 03-06-2003 at 06:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2003, 08:33 PM
agla's Avatar
Gold Oak Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cape Cod
USDA Zone 6
Posts: 1,324
agla is on a distinguished road
Looks like me and my keyboard were not on the same page at 5:37 this morning. I hit all kinds of keys.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2003, 11:30 PM
Seedling
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
USDA
Posts: 140
Bexter is an unknown quantity at this point
Thank-you, to all that replied.
ALGA- I think your post is right on the money. Thanks
The one designer is terribly upset and is sure she is getting a bum deal.
This issue has not been resolved and as much as I would have liked to stay out of it I have been put in the middle.. I have printed this thread ... hoping it will help.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2003, 04:12 AM
Lanelle's Avatar
Ranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern VA
USDA Zone 7
Posts: 1,239
Lanelle is on a distinguished road
One more element that you haven't mentioned: A Vehicle.
Do they get to drive a company vehicle to appointments and job sites? That is important to me. It is a valuable part of the package just as health insurance is important.

I just noticed that you only have two tiers in your commission scale. If a designer does $400K will there be a bonus or higher % scale?
__________________
Lanelle
http://www.progrounds.com

Last edited by Lanelle : 03-07-2003 at 04:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Designer/sales pay scale? moltenfe Landscaping Design 3 09-26-2007 08:59 PM
Need help with scale drawing HLS Landscaping Design 13 11-15-2004 07:46 AM
Slow Pay or No Pay... Bladewizard Legalese 11 11-14-2004 06:57 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0
Copyright ©2003-2007 Ground Trades Xchange, LLC