[johnkeegan]

How many of you have had your sons/daughters work with you in the business and, if so, any words of advice? I've got sons that will be approaching the age in a few years and I admit I'm not sure if I'll enjoy mixing the father/boss roles.
I was talking to a local small businessman and he said he insisted that his son work for someone else first to see what work was about and so his son wouldn't think he was a meany (as most first bosses are thought of). Later in life the son joined him in the business, after he went through the "9-5 boot camp" with someone else.

[Dale Wiley]

I could write a book on this one.

I totally agree that they should work for someone else at some point before worrking in a family business. There are also children that should never work in the family business.

I have had both my sons work in the business, they are now in the Marine Corps, and they will not be returning to the business by their choice and I think it is a very good decision. It is not a personality thing, they are smart enought to realize, and I have encouraged them and they have seen me do a fairly poor job of running the business the last few years, that they have no desire to go into the trades.

They will be getting college degrees and moving on to a good career. I would not let them into the business unless they did get a degree of some kind.

I had my oldest step son working in the business. He left to go to another job, but did not improve his work habits, and was canned from that one. He wanted to come back, and his mother wanted me to hire him back. (Another story, and not a good one)

I did, things went well for a while, then the personality and work ethic thing came, he did not feel obligated to abide by company rules, and was deceptive on several occasions. He got himself in some legal trouble, Mom and I saved his there, it cost us A LOT of money, and he still decided that he did not feel obligated by the company rules.

I am a fault for all that happend. I saw the indicators and warnings, I tried every way to get him in line, I went against my own company rules and operations system Mom tried"talking" to him, it just did not work.

And it damn near destroyed our family.

I let him go and we tried to move on from there. It has taken my wife and I 5 months to get back to a decent relationship. My stepson still has issues, but they are his problem at this point.

Now the younger stepson has worked for me for the last 3 years. He was real marginal and was on the bubble earlier this spring. I stuck with him, and when I let the older one go, he stepped up real good and took on the responsibility, matured a whole lot, and is doing a great job. He wants to get into law enforcement, but does not think he needs additional education to do that. I do.

We are heading into the new season, with a clear division of responsibility, he is making good money for 20 years old and we will see where it goes.

I have never seen a company that has had a smooth process where any of the owners children are involved. If I had to do this all over again, I would NEVER hire one of my kids for anything other than summer labor with minimal responsibility.

The damage to the business can be too great, and since I deviated from my own operations system I use, our business sustained significant damage, and I was too busy dealing with the drama and crisis of the day to stop the bleeding and patch the holes. It will take me every bit of net profit this next year to return the business to a stable footing. There will be no deviations from the operating system this year. Deviate from the system and you will be gone, no matter who you are.

This is a fairly personal post, but I hope I can save someone the trouble I went through. Your situation may not be the same, but I have never really seen a good outcome on any of these.

BTW, I was able to quantify at least 62K in lost revenue and increased cost's from this problem, and I am sure there is another 10K waiting out there for me before tax time.

[Rob Shauger]

Hope you guys read Dales post a couple times I dont know to many people who know their numbers like Dale does and he has shared a very personal and real situation here.

Take the personal side of this totally out of the picture and imagine your day to day tribulations at your size company. Now look at what Dale has tabulated for his losses.

Here comes that bad feeling in the pit of your stomach.

Thanks for sharing Dale!

[RHayden]

We've been a family business since 1965. Take it from someone who has seen both sides of the fence. Have them work somewhere else for awhile.

[Lanelle]

We have encouraged our daughters to work in the business during the summers and to pitch in and do some part-time office work during the school year. This is not a full-time, permanent situation and we don't want any of them to work for the company on any long-term basis. We have found that these work experiences have given them time with Dad, an appreciation for 'hard work,' a sense of responsibility, a better understanding of where the money comes from that supports them, an opportunity to succeed at assigned tasks and a 'can do' attitude.
We also encourage them to work elsewhere so that they gain regular work experience.

[Dale Wiley]

I thought about this last night quite a bit, and wanted to add what I feel is the main point, one that I knowingly deviated from, and what caused the problems.

I was running my business under a very scripited and tested system, the Complete Operations Management and System Solutions, or COMPASS. The system has a check and balance, and a process for virtually every aspect of your business, and if followed in at least 75% of the process will allow you to run a business with out reinventing the wheel yourself.

When you knowingly choose to deviate from the system, the system becomes destablized, and the operations very, very, quickly follow. It is expotential in all ways.

Had I not chosen to deviate from the system in a personal decision, I would have NOT encountered the PROBLEMS I did, and would not be playing catch up for the nest 12 to 18 months.

Duh?? What the was I thinking ???

I love structure and systems, and if your in this business, and you do not have a system to do the same thing the same way EVERY time, you will encounter PROBLEMS. Never,never will I deviate from the system again.

As to the personal and family issues that brought on my poor decisions, we have solved most of those to some extent with outside interventions and help, and last night, the entire family and extended family, went to a local brew pub to have a big family dinner before sending the Marines back to their duties.

This includes all kids, GF's and BF's, my ex and husband, some of the cousins and friends. Great time..

Now is was quite interesting to see all the holiday travelers at the PDX airport this morning at 4 am, with WAYYYY too much luggage.

[johnkeegan]

Dale, I appreciate and will heed your hard-earned advice. When it comes to mixing family and work I guess "work is work" and family is... well, just more important, especially if it's immediate family.
Most of us want our kids to at least understand and appreciate what we do for a living, even though, we don't expect them to follow our career path. But it's probably important to remember at the age of 16 or even 21 most of us were probably not good at "understanding and appreciating" much of anything. Hopefully that comes with age. And before everyone you owe a "thank you" to has passed on.
It's too bad because our kids could certainly make alot more in their early years working for us than flipping burgers or washing dishes. But, hey, those were my first jobs and I survived OK.

[4seasons]

I would like to add my perspective to this thread as the "kid". I grew up in this business since I was 5. By the time I was 12-13 I was out there working with my dad and his crews. He wanted me to learn how to work, would not cut me a bit of slack even though the guys told him I was doing a great job. By the time I was out of school I didnt look forward to each day, unless I knew my dad wasnt going to be there to breath down my kneck. I went to a community college for 1 year, then decided it was time to move away and get on my own. I went to a branch of OSU in Wooster OH. worked part-time with a landscape company, but quit a couple weeks later to try and work with my dad that summer. That was a bad mistake-always leaving on the weekends to visit my gf back in wooster.So I came back to school early and worked at pizza hut. I then quit school a year later to work full time for another Landscape co. I learned more from that company than I did with my dad and 3years of school. I saw that unless they changed their structure there was no chance of advancement for me above maybe foreman/manager position. Plus putting up with them going through the kids in the business thing also just didnt fly. I quit and went on my own(4yrs now). I can look back see what my dad wanted now, but still couldnt work in the same town or business with him too much alike in stubbornness. My dad ended up giving my brother the business after I turned it down. My brother seems to be doing a fine job of running it. sorry for rambling so long

Bruce

[GLAN]

Interesting experiences


I don't have children......some days I wish I did and most days glad I don't.

I for one would have my kids work for me....understanding it's a job like any other........I would more likely encourage them at first working flipping burgers or something before working for me. Though I am not exactly sure on that.......

More importantly this kind of decision making I think has to be dealt with on a personality level. If I had a son/daughter that I felt very comfortable with working with me........fine. If I had any doubt.......try them and see where it goes....perhaps other employment is best.

I see no reason not to try to have children working in the family business.

[VoodooChile]

I learned my work ethic (and plenty more) working on a family farm-- my late brother-in-laws-- and think a landscaping business offers a similarly great opportunity for family members to utilize their many skills for fun, education and profit.

Specifically, my 14 year old son blows leaves, sorts/disposes of pots, files and babysits (see below). My 11 year old son sorts/disposes of pots, and waters. My 8 year old daughter waters, makes bouquets, and "designs", creating startling combinations of the plant material she finds in the yard at home.

Most importantly, my gal, Spiderlilly, does design and sales, and supervises our maintenance crew.

Sure, there is friction, and positions of responsibility are earned, family or not, but I can't imagine excluding family, just 'cause, from what consumes my every waking moment 9 months a year...

[johnkeegan]

Voodoo, It's interesting that you mention how you have the kids work in the greenhouses. I've been pondering growing my own perennials on site for numerous reasons and one was that it would offer my kids a low impact way to try out the business. It would give them a slow transition into the working world and they wouldn't have to start out lifting 80 lb. blocks and wrestling 300 lb. root balls.

[cutntrim]

I don't think children of owners are necessarily any different than any other employees. They've either had a strong work ethic instilled in them, or they haven't. When my employees screw up, it's my fault, not theirs. I either failed in training them, gave them more than they could handle, or should not have hired them in the first place.

I've got two boys that I hope will work with me when they are old enough. Considering they're only 5 and 3, that's a long way off. If my wife and I raise them right, and they turn into responsible young men, then I don't think there should be any concern in hiring them on for summers. Whether or not they choose to continue working for me, I hope that will be a choice that they make - and won't be one that I have to.

[johnkeegan]

Cutntrim, I agree with alot of what you said but don't forget most of us at 15-16 years of age probably thought our first boss was a meany. Years later we hopefully have a different perspective. But I don't know if I really want to be the first meany. I figure there'll be enough head-butting and testosterone venting to go around during those years as is. I might not want to face it ALL day.
Besides, as most of us who are parents realize, different kids are simply born differently. From day one they are hard-wired uniquely. So, at age 16 some may thrive on physical activity and pushing themselves to the limit. Others may not want that until their 25 or maybe never. But they thrive on intellectual activity and academic challenge. Does it mean you raised one "right" and the other not? And which one do you think will really be happier, which is all any parent should be concerned with. But you could see how one of those kids would be better suited to "landscaping" and the other not so much. And how hard do you want to push the one that doesn't have the inate attributes for landscaping at age 16?
As I stated, I probably wouldn't have wanted to hire me at age 16 (or even 21) to work at the intensity that my crews are expected to perform at. As I remember, I had alot of (enjoyable) distractions at that time. But I picked up the pace later.

[Dale Wiley]

When my employees screw up, it's my fault, not theirs. I either failed in training them, gave them more than they could handle, or should not have hired them in the first place.

Right on the money there ....

I made the decision to hire,

I made the decision to tolerate a lower level of performance that deviated from our company standard,

I made the decision to tolerate the job performance that came with the above.

The standards and systems were in place. I as manager choose to deviate and it took a HUGE chuck out of my and wallet. And by huge, I mean 25% at least of my projected gross sales for last year.

WHEN ANY FAMILY MEMBER IS INVOLVED, THERE WILL BE AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE OR CONNECTION GREATER THAN THAT OF AN EMPLOYEE.

If ANY of my kids want involved in either of my business's, it will be on my terms. They will have to have a college degree equivilant to a Bachelors degree in something. They will work in a field capacity for at least 2 to 3 years, and they will make a POSITIVE contribution to the business. They will understand it is not a 40 hour and then party kind of a thing.

My daughter and I have had a couple of preliminary disscussions about our nursery and her possible inolvement there. She is 23, has a degree and is trying to find her way in the business world. We'll see what happens.


When kids are brought into a business, they need to start in areas of the business that are menial and have realitive low impact on profitability an operations.

[Turtle]

Speaking from being one of the sons. I think it is important to realize that your kids might have some good ideas and can really help the business if given the opportunity. Sometimes I think parents might rely on their kids as being the best foremans and workers they ever had and never let them move from that position or feel that well i worked my @$?! off and wasnt in the office until i was 30 so he/she can too. But our parents have been teaching us to be very hard workers since being a kid and seeing how our parents handled situations and so forth so i think our learning curve is less.

Our family business was not landscaping or lawn maintenance but construction. Our business shutdown years ago and as a family we have become closer. When you breathe, eat ,sleep your business there is nothing else to talk about at the dinner table. I only have a daughter 2 yrs old so havent thought about her being in the business So as i go thru runnning my company i am always trying to make it better through new technology systems etc. Far from being there but know what i want to do.


Of course this is my side of the story LOL but hope it brought some more points to the thread