[Bill Schwab]

I'm looking for some suggestions here. First I will state the process of installing a permitted wall in San Diego. The way it works on a clients end is they call, want a wall, and have no clue as to the nightmare the municipality will unfold before them, they just want a wall built.

So, on our end, we get a soil report ordered ( usually 5K and several phone calls on my part) hire a wall designer, and, file for permits. During which time, even though we have all pertainate docs to obtaining a wall permit, the cities want the drawing reviewed, and usually request a grading permit to be submitted. On several occasions, the city/county has kicked back the plans and made us gain approval through the coastal commission, usually at an additional cost of $20,000.00 billed to the client.

The process takes as little as 3 months, and as long as 2 years.

Now the permit gets approved....Since municipalities are usually overpayed and grossly underworked, and don't choose to assume the liability of inspecting segmental walls, their part comes after trenches are dug, and after the wall is completed.

A special inspector is assigned to montior soil hardness and check grid lengths during construction, typically billed ala carte for the job.

In cases before us, we cannot even get a special inspector to call us back, which, takes time, and I have seriously thought about billing telephone calls in 15 minute increments, just like you do when you call your mouthpiece..

You can see why other companies won't install walls for homeowners, because typically the GC is responsible for obtaining all pertainate BS associated with the job, and all we do is call when inspections are needed on site.

I'm sick of the wasted time, and the length of time associated with these jobs. If I leave it up to homeowners, it simply won't get done. So, my questions are, what way(s) would you charge for, or recover this time?

I could make it a one stop shop, and bill for everything, which would enable me to bill accordingly along the way. In my current scenario, we recover the time in our hourly rate. I don't at this time see we are recovering enough to make all the process worth while. And, if I roll it all into the one stop shop scenario, even though I am using licensed engineering firms, and geo techs, how much more liability do I expose myself to????

Lastly, I can pick up enough classes to become certified and buy a nuclear gauge to do my own soil testing and eliminate one more person to wait for, and enable us to bill for those incidental inspections......
But, then the liability issue opens up....So, let me have it here...how do you all see this thing working the most effiently while also being able to bill accordingly?

[ianc]

Ouch Bill

that's a lengthy process, For Custom Residential Landscape. Usually here the precast supplier supplies the generic wall detail depending on the wall height - it gets packaged up with a to scale layout plan. then $50.00 and you have your permit, Sometimes we will have to get a fill permit also that denotes where the rainwater leaders exit after the construction is complete.

To be honest I do mostly gravity walls (boulders) and batter back each course, also try to stay away from any walls over 3 ft, Sorry that is probably not an option for you folks down there

[GLAN]

Bill

I am in no way familiar with the Bureaucraric nonsense you deal with.....But it seems to me that it is pretty much straight forward.

You know what the municipal fees are......You know what the designer fees are the geo dude for the soil tests. The only kink is when as you said.......paper work gets kicked back for approval from the coastal commission.

So............for what you know is the basic package it and bill it as you like......But if it then has to go through the coastal commission, your client needs to know this ahead of time and that fee would have to be paid "in full" I don't see any need for you to absorb that fee........as you said. That has only been on occasion.

Now......regarding your time and phone calls.....You should have a round about average of what it takes concerning time on your end in getting this process up and running to the point of approval.......Say the average is 10 hours.........Why not include that into basic package as I mentioned and bill it out as you like.

I dunno.........seems kinda simple to me. Though I realy have no idea what it is you go through in this process.

[Paul]

Bill, you really need to talk to a E&O insurance company in your area. From what it sounds like you might need to put a soils guy on your payroll. I know thats big bucks and then what you need to carry for insurance for all the above. I understand waiting for a inspector is not $$ wise cost effective but it might be if E&O put you out of the range installation you might just have to start adding it into your fees.

Now pulling off a job because you can't get inspected in a timely manner you should look into a mobilization charge. This would be a set fee that is attached to each job and spelled out in your contract. It should be a line on the contract that the owner must sign so he/she understands how hard it is to get these things done where you are. It would incur with each delay.

[Pelican]

I have an alternative suggestion.......MOVE!!

My God!! What a bunch of crap you go through! The only time we have to do anything at all is when the walls are over 4' in height, and even then it's nothing compared to what you've listed.

Have you done enough of these to get an idea on the amount of time you spend?

[PSUscaper]

After reading the post, this came to my mind....

Your installing projects that, for most matters, the intial design work, leg work, etc.....is more than most projects I install....

Having said this, and with my limited experience with higher end projects, I will say this.

Does it really matter how you bill these jobs at this point....

The fact is, these people are willing to spend the money you ask for.....you are not pulling teeth here....at least it doesn't sound like it.....and you are not competing against other contractors for this sort of high end work, as quite frankly....there seems to be very few other contractors in your area besides the large commercial project ones that would be able too/or want to tackle residential jobs of this magnitude.

The bottom line is, bill it all out.....If the people are willing to spend this sort of money so they can have a extra 20 ft of lawn, are they really concerned about how you bill them???

Just bill them the way it works. It sounds like you have complete control over the matter. If you feel you need to bill by the hour, then do it.

You are in a world that very few of us are in.....none the less, a world that any of us can imagine.

I've learned from the few high end jobs I've done, that the client hired me because they were confident in the work I do and the way I conduct my business. When it comes to money, they are business people too....hek, that's how they got there......and they understand the value of time. If you go to a client and explain the situatation (if that is even needed) and the reasoning behind your billing process, I don't see you encountering problems.

From other posts, it seems like you are always commenting on the amount of time you spend on securing permits, getting inspections, etc. Just bill it out! I think they have the money, and if they weren't willing to pay the bill, then in all liklihood, you would not be there in the first place.

[Dale Wiley]

After being in San Diego a few weeks ago, I would say the with it, sell out and buy a boat, go fishing and drink Coronas day and night until I died or got tired of it which every came first.

[Bill Schwab]

I have been reading these replies and have had alot of windshield time this last weke to think about what makes the most sense.

The market obviously will support the charges incurred, or we would not be moving the amount of SRW's we have been. I have always liked in our area, the idea of everything being in house, and E&O insurance would have to be purchased. Think for a minute of all the possibilities wiuth an in house soils pro. Aside from turning all permit related duties over the him and charging for them, we could also farm those services out. By having a relationship with this person by being on payroll, we would be the first to know what was being built, where, and, the contacts for that jobsite would be right in our soil work docs.

At this time, it is not feesable, but it is sure something we could add to our business plan.

As far as moving, aside form all liberal knitwittery, all the regulation, and having worked where that white crap graces the ground in the winter months, no thanks. Prices are assanine here, everything tends to get done tomorrow rather than today, and it is Ok to return phone calls in a few weeks....All of which drives me CRAZY, but those are reasons for our success. And, it does not get any better than SoCal fort weather, work, and just having good clean living and fun.

Billing ala carte is going to be the way we do this stuff for now, and the mobilization charge is the way to go forward. Nonetheless, it is still goofy and maddening..

Thank you for all who responded. It has once again given me a direction and started stalled brain gears to turn....

[Paul]

Thinking more about it Bill, I would start a separate company, or division. This way soils would become a profit center even if you didn't get the wall install work.

[Lanelle]

In reading over your last post, Bill, and thinking about some walls we just installed, I think that you should start a separate company for the soils testing. Rationale: It gives you an 'independent' testing source so that there is less impression of bias. Here, the building inspector insisted that an independent soil testing engineer (not the wall-design engineering firm) perform the compaction testing and inspections as we put up the walls. Our client wasn't too thrilled to have to pay for this but such is life. By the way, our county is taking lessons from SoCal.
I also agree with Paul about having another profit center. It could also feed solid leads to you since some people would realize that they don't have the expertise to build the walls as required.

[Green4Me]

A separate company also gives you another layer of insulation from liability. Yet you control their schedule.

[outdoorbill]

Sounds worse than working in an office indoors and like being in politics trying to get something done which is slow as molasses.

You must like building walls to take all that hurry up and wait punishment.

[Bill Schwab]

I love building walls. Extremely profitable, good show of achievement by seeing what was and what is, and they are very easy to train employees on.
Walls typically breed other walls, meaning that once you get one up, many more will follow, and, in San Diego where the land costs are so outrageous, every lot has a slope that can be converted to gain more land. So, by building a wall, we took worthless unusable space and made it usable. You get a wall up, they pull more equity and ask what you would build on top of the space, which then opens the doors for BBQ's, ponds, fireplaces, cabanas, and in some cases, garages or guest homes. Unlike other parts of the country, every flat hunk of earth if usually sporting something on top.

The red tape is well worth the other fru fruisms we get to build on the land. Plus, after haivng gone through that red tape, when you puill simple permits like for a cabana, or a gas pipe, it makes the process relaxing. After building the walls, we have developed a relationship with the person already, once they find out we do all the other stuff, the work becomes ours to loose if you will.

[HardDaysKnight]

Bill Schwab wrote:

Walls typically breed other walls, meaning that once you get one up, many more will follow.

Once you start one another one is needed and after that the
client wants one here and there and in most cases the neighbors
have the same issues and need them also.
Bill, I love Paul's and Lanelle's advice and think that should
make life much easier for you. Keep it as a separate entity and
profit from it as well. Good Luck, Johnny