[catmunn]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and I am so glad that I found it; it's great.
I am studying ecological landscape design now and soon, I wish to start my own garden design business. I have been a landscape maintenance technician for many years , but still have virtually no business management training.
I am working on my business's contract and other legalese. My question is-when I hire sub-contractors to do the paving, pond, retaining wall work (since I have no abilities here)-does my contract have to specify who is liable for any shoddy work-myself or the sub-contractor-or as a designer, am I responsible, legally, for the work of those I sub-contact hardscaping to?


Thanks.

[Stonehenge]

It all depends on the wording onf your contract, but in general, you should probably think of it this way:

If you hired a builder to build a house for you, and the drywall wasn't done properly, who would you most likely call to get the problem fixed? Probably the contractor.

So even if you have wording otherwise, clients are going to expect that they can come to you to solve whatever problems they are having, and you'll do what's needed to remedy that situation.

And someone else should probably jump in here, but if there's a problem that results in a lawsuit (let's hope it never happens), the plaintiff will probably use the shotgun approach and sue anyone that may have had a hand in the work, contractor and sub. Right?

I'm sure someone here has done some work on either side of this (actually, I have, so I should check the paperowkr I have), to see how to best insulate yourself.

[catmunn]

Thank for the response-
I guess I'm confused as to where the garden designer falls into the picture. Also-is a garden designer necessarily a landscape designer? Landscaper implies moving earth to create an functionality and beauty in the garden-the garden designer label implies greater familiarity w/ plants and the ecosystem and how it will interact with the functional 'scaping' part.
If I offer garden design(design process-site analysis, drawn plans, etc), installation, and maintenance-am I spreading myself too thin? If my stonescaping person messes up-I would like him to have his own way, and an independent company, of dealing with the customer regarding the problem-but this problem would probably be mine to deal with. Would I now hold my sub-contractor legally responsible to me, or to the customer? Am I a general contractor if I offer too mant services?

Sorry that I have so many questions.

[BigD]

I am an intern for a General Contractor and when we sub out the work we required a certain length warranty for all materials and labor, which is specified in the contract, which I would suggest the same for any jobs that you sub out. Copies of the warranties are provided for the customer after completion of the work and copies are kept by us for our records.

Inevitably when there is a warranty issue, we are contacted by the customer and then we contact the sub-contractor.

So from my understanding as a contractor we are held liable due to our contract, but I imagine that the liability could then be passed from the contractor to the sub-contractor with proper documentation.

[Stonehenge]

You are a contractor if you subcontract work to others. Doesn't matter what your title is ("Garden Designer", etc). For your clients to have a pleasant experience they need to have a single point of contact - you. It's then your job to see if the problem truly needs a remedy, and that your subs follow through and fix the problem.

You should also expect that the customer will be paying you directly, and you will pay the subs.

[catmunn]

Thanks-that helps.

Another question. In my contract-I want to work on a cost plus basis rather than a stipulated sum. I have very little experience with estimating final costs so I prefer to bill at stages and paid as parts of the project are completed seems the better way to go-I just would have to keep careful records. Do you have experience with 'cost plus' contracts?

[Stonehenge]

BigD - Drop me a line and catch me up on what's been going on by you.

A Time and Materials (T&M) type of contract will be the safest for you, but you're going to run into a different issue using that method - clients are going to want to know how much something is going to cost. Nobody can offer you a blank checkbook. Since you'll be subbing most of this out, it seems that having a hard price would be easier to do - submit the specs to your subs and get prices. Add on your percentage and you're set.

So long as the design plan doesn't change, the subs should expect to get paid what they bid and no more. Which reminds me, you'll want to get intimate with change orders; when to use them, how to use them.

[catmunn]

How about Maximum cost plus?-then there is a cap.
I am working on a change order form right now.

Excuse my ignorance( I've been a labouring fool)-but how does the bidding work exactly. Is there a write up about that? I haven't had to bid as an employee for others.

[BigD]

The bidding is entirely up to you. You can ask one company to bid the project or 5 companies, but the more bids you get the more competitive price you will obtain.
As far as who to invite to bid...once you have a strong idea of the final scope of work, invite whatever companies that can complete the job the best.
I would suggest finding a book that goes into more detail on all of these phases, I would guess that some of the other people on the site would be able to make some good suggestions, but one of the text books that I have used is Construction Specifications Writing by Harold J. Rosen and John R. Regener Jr. It has info. on all of this and has several sample forms that could be used.

[catmunn]

Thank you for the info-I'll have to read up on it more.

[TrickyDick]

1. Subcontracting means that you contract with another company to perform a portion of the work that the client has contracted you to do. If there is a problem YOU are responsible to the client because you were contracted to perform the work. The fact that you hired someone else to do it is not the clients problem. If you have a properly worded subcontract with your sub then THEY are should be responsible TO YOU for the work they did and for any problems that they cause. So if there were a legal issue the client would sue you and you would have to go after your sub. Ultimately you are responsible to the client. You can also just refer the client to the person you want to do the work. They can then contract on thier own. You don't get any of the money but you don't have the responsibility either.

2. I was about to start typing about T&M contracts (instead I will just say that T&M is okay for some circumstances but you will want to learn to bid jobs on a lump sum basis as soon as you can) but I really think you need to do some reading about this stuff or take a class. For everything you think you don't know about this right now there are twenty things that you are going to find out that you actually don't know when people start answering your questions. Every answer is going to leave you with a lot more questions.

[agla]

You might want to start out a little more cautiously until you get a better handle on it. You could do design work and include reviewing bids and making recommendations rather than being a general contractor until you really know what you are doing.

Everyone wants to make money marking up other peoples work because there is a lot of money to be made doing that. But that situation only exists when you manage the entire job. You'll find that you won't get too many opportunities to draw up a design and then find a few subs to do it while you stay out of the way and make a percentage. The reason to pay a general is for the capability to not only find subs, but to schedule them, get the best out of them, inspect their work, approve it AND REJECT it, and to have the ability to get them to finish it right. That means you have to know whether their work and materials is good and that you can stand up to them when it is not. Until you can do that, there really is no sense for someone to hand the reins and the % over to you to do it.

Project management is how that mark up is made. It is a big risk to take that money and then to hope that the subs will all just work out. No one wants to pay extra without getting extra and you, or I, or anyone else, won't get those contracts for very long if we don't back it up.

One thing you, and other designers, have to really think about is that there can be very expensive consequences as a result of our designs that come from "errors and ommissions". That can be from not noticing that you diverted water runoff and it causes damage to someones finished room in a basement or ice at the end of a driveway that causes a fatal accident, or who knows what. A $500 design could cost you thousands in damages just from what you draw on paper. Thatgets multiplied if you are hired to manage the job and the subs do work that you do not reject and a retaining wall fails and crushes a Mercedes or a kid in the process.

That kind of responsibility needs experience to keep you financially safe from damages and in order for you to get the work. You have to realize that your potential clients will always look at you in comparison to others as a whole package. All it takes is one person who they feel is better suited to complete the whole package, even if your design ideas sound great, and you are left out if you are trying to sell the whole package.

Someone else made the point that people shy away from hourly rates and cost plus because, well, if you can't estimate the cost, how would you expect them to? So, it is much easier to sell jobs when you can say it will cost $x. Now you have to understand that you do not have to sell the complete job since it is out of your expertise at this time. You can sell the design work first, which in my way of thinking should always be the case even if you were to build it.

The key to selling design work and not having the client bleed you with revisions and lots of extra exercises is to write contracts that state exactly what you will do as specifically as possible including how many times you'll meet with them, how many revisions you'll allow, and MOST important - the hourly rate that you will charge for work outside that defined contract. You will be amazed how decisive people will become and how smoothly the process moves because they will make sure to stay within those bounds. You can also put many disclaimers in your contracts and on your plans to cover your tail.

After that, you can give them another proposal to help select contractors and consult with the contractors. You may want to review bids and make recommendations for hiring contractors for small money as it will give you an opportunity to get a feel for what they charge which is very valuable in making price estimations in the future without a whole lot of responsibility. It also gets contractorsto see you as a source of work for them which never hurts at lunch time or cocktail hour.

It is not easy making a living as a designer because most people look at the contractor as the one stop shopping and they see them out building work they like. Many ask who landscaped you house and few answer with the name of a designer. In order to get the design/project management work you have to be the first contact which is very hard to do. Garden Centers, landscape contractors, architects, and engineers will have more first contact than a landscape designer.

Next point. You want to be an "environmental" landscape designer. That cuts out a big portion of an already hard to work market which ties one hand behind your back. The home owner market for environmental landscaping is very very weak. They tend to be earthy people with a strong liking for doing things themselves. Where environmental landscape design has a market is not with the earthy crunchy folks, but with bigger developers in highly regulated areas (I do a lot of this). The place to get work out of this is by making contact with land surveyors and civil engineers. These projects are designed in the permitting process long before many people even know a piece of land is getting developed. I have to warn you that it is very political and you have to work as an advocate for the developer and not Green Peace. The good news is that you get to apply your creativity and knowledge to soften the impact of development that was going to take place with or without you. Best of all, you will be known to the client before he begins to think of the rest of the landscape design and why change horses in mid stream?

Look into "errors and ommissions" insurance to cover your tail.

[catmunn]

That is very helpful-and a bit depressing too. Now that I have studied the ecological viewpoint in gardening-I can no longer use chemicals, so I do not want to work w/ companies that use them because I know the residual effects. That does limit me, I know, because I've applied w. some companies and they are not interested in adopting the philosophy(I'm from a traditional landscape maintenance background myself). Most companies do not want to limit their customer base by choosing organic methods. It is true though, that more and more companies are offering both organic and non-organic landscaping.
Money is not my bottom line (even though Im a single parent)-my ethics are very important. I will continue a maintemance technician and the garden design will be an aside until I know what I'm doing.
One thing that I hate about designing is that it is on paper, to scale(small) like threading a needle-so it's hard to see your design choices in just your mind's eye. In fact-I'm building a deck and drawing up detail plans, but have never built one! I have been working on natural stone patios and walkways and love satisfaction of the beautiful finished product.
Thank you so much for your input-It helps and I will study others for a while.