[kinnanscaping]

I have been advertising fall clean-ups. I have done a couple, bid a couple of others ,and I have been turned down for a couple, too. Given the nature of a fall clean-up--I am advertising "Leaves, Trimming, Edging, Haul Off"--is there a cap on what someone will pay, in anyone's experience.

I have been struggling back and forth in my mind about this. I have been bidding using labor times with some equipment time tacked on and a flat haul off fee. In a couple of cases, with the size of the yard and the amount of leaves I have seen, my bids have been (in my mind) high. Coincidentally, those are the jobs that I have NOT landed. On the other hand, I have a pretty good handle on the amount of time that these things will take, and I can't seem to justify doing them for any less than what I have been estimating. To give you an idea, the jobs that I have landed have been for an average of $200/job, while the jobs that I have been turned down for averaged $500+/job.

Should I charge less per man hour than I do for general landscaping (edging, plants, mulch) because they are "just fall clean-ups"? Should I set flat rates based on yard size and number of trees? I am a bit stumped on how to get the bigger sized clean-ups while making me some moolah and not scaring off the customer with a pricey bid.

I greatly appreciate your help in wrapping my mind around this one.

[Greenboy]

No don't lower your rates just because you got turned down a few times. Talk to some other guys in the area, you should be charging similar to them. I don't do cleanups by the man hour. I have done enough where i know how long they will take and I tell them a price based on how long I estimate it will take and then bang it out as fast as I can, IMO you mkae more money this way, and everyone knows how much it will cost, no surprises to anyone

[TrickyDick]

My guess is that what you are seeing is that most people who can afford to pay $500 for a leaf clean-up already have a landscaper contracted for the season. A lot of people who don't mind mowing their own lawn every week will shell out $200 to have someone else pick up leaves. $500 is getting into another league.

[prapoza]

I agree with Tricky on this one. Before setting your price find out your costs. Do some homework this winter and get your pricing down. Be mindful of what your competition charges (know the market environment) but don't base your price on theirs, that's a recipe for disaster.
You need to set yourself apart if you want nice high end clientele.
Ask yourself these questions, answer from your clients perspective (the ones you want):
1. What's in it for them?
2. Why hire you?
3. Why do you charge more than the other guy? Why should they pay more?

I went to your website, it's very nice, I suggest having a good writer look it over. Some of your text doesn't make sense. Anyhow, you say you care more, you pay attention to details, you return phone calls and are great at communicating, treat people with respect.
Everyone says that stuff or implies it. Show people you do all that or give them examples.
I have found that people (clients) value construction more than maintenance. They see construction as art that takes a high level of skill and maintenance as a commodity that anyone can do.
The best is examples, testimonials, neighbors that use you, refer them to places you do in the area.
I sometimes drive prospects by existing clients to look at our work (more for construction) or offer to meet them there. I give them a reference sheet of maintenance clients they can call to ask about our service.
When we walk around I point out problems and offer solutions as well as identify plants, "I love the way your stewartia looks with that under planting of cinnamon fern” You are letting them know you know plants and are an expert without telling them. That kind of stuff has to be subtle and sincere or it will come off as schmoozy (the worst).

[kinnanscaping]

To Tricky Dick: duly noted and personally observed. I just revamped the pricing, creating a three-tier, flat-rate pricing system. I even e-mailed someone that denied one of my higher bids to see if they would bite on the highest tier price.

To Prapoza: I appreciate your feedback. Your questions related to my service and pricing are valid, and I actually had a friend ask versions of them to me today. So, I have a good handle on that.

As far as my website goes, I am always seeking feedback. I just asked my developer to read through it for me again yesterday. I try to take critiques (what a politically correct way of saying "I'm gonna knock the wind outta ya but here is a little something sweet to suck on for two seconds") with a grain of salt and with a grain of humility. My only problem with what you said is that you did not even give one small example of something that doesn't make sense to you. If I am going to have a good writer check it over, at least give us both a reference point to begin with.

Also, I disagree that pretty much my entire mission statement and its' finer points sound like everyone else's shtick. Everyone's mission statement and pick-up line is "schmaltzy." That's why I have a list of my services with descriptions and several pictures of the many projects that I have undertaken.

I guess, Prapoza, I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to my posting, but I don't think that it really hit on what I was looking for. Much of what you wrote has been said on this site, numerous times, and I have taken it to heart every time. Trust me, I don't plan on offering fall clean-ups or any other maintenance item for the rest of my life, let alone next year. I got a late start--July--and I am trying to play catch up (so analyzing my costs, which I have a good handle on, all winter won't really help me now).

[prapoza]

Kinnan,

I certainly didn't mean to offend you in anyway. Sorry if something I said offended you. Your site frankly is better looking than mine. I have the benefit of having a great writer as my wife and she proof reads everything. Here's an example of the text that doesn't make sense: "I have applied my work ethic and creativity to many landscaping projects over the years, and I would like to pass those characteristics on to my customers. I want to provide a quality service at a reasonable price while maintaining the utmost integrity."
I understand what you are trying to say but it's not said very well.
What I've said has been said many times before because it has served other and myself well. This is my 17th year in business and I feel that just in the last 2-3 years I've really started to get the hang of it. I understand it's a process not an event.
I understand it's not gonna get you any sales but analyzing your costs helps anytime.
Gotta go, crews are coming in. Keep up the good work.

[kinnanscaping]

No offense was really taken, Prapoza. As I said in my last thread, I do appreciate any feedback others are willing to offer. Thanks for clarifying what exactly was confusing to you in my text. I want to shorten up that section, making it more succinct.

Honestly, I should not have even responded last night b/c I had just gotten off of my part time job and was tired. I apologize for any huffiness.

[Uncle Albert]

Just read the post, and you guys kinda got away from the ? of clean-up price. I'm going through the same thing ..to low to high.. I treat clean-ups as a new mind set. If I cant get 500$ Ill take 360.00$ as long as I wont get killed on it . If I make 150.00$ when its all said and done thats fine. Its not the only one for the day and at the end of the work day if you cane net 350.00 who's better than you.. That part time job you mentioned makes you grumpy. Were all not big shot million dollar landscapers, just hard working folks with a better idea than standing in Walmart all day for 60.00$. So embrace clean-up season as a whole new extended season.. forget the landscape days of money glory. Price them and go get them, And be proud of all your new stuff i.e. blowers and vacuums and landscape equipment. Ra,ra,ra!!!

[Mac]

Originally posted by Uncle Albert
Just read the post, and you guys kinda got away from the ? of clean-up price. I'm going through the same thing ..to low to high.. I treat clean-ups as a new mind set. If I cant get 500$ Ill take 360.00$ as long as I wont get killed on it . If I make 150.00$ when its all said and done thats fine. Its not the only one for the day and at the end of the work day if you cane net 350.00 who's better than you.. That part time job you mentioned makes you grumpy. Were all not big shot million dollar landscapers, just hard working folks with a better idea than standing in Walmart all day for 60.00$. So embrace clean-up season as a whole new extended season.. forget the landscape days of money glory. Price them and go get them, And be proud of all your new stuff i.e. blowers and vacuums and landscape equipment. Ra,ra,ra!!!

Thats potentially some of the worst advice that has ever been posted here. You advise going and getting dedicated equipment strictly for cleanups you may or may not be pricing correctly? Did I read that right?

Why not price them hourly? I quote my hourly rate and then a time estimate, say between 3 and 4 hours. They win and I win. My profit is embedded into my rate and we dont loose on any job. Best of all, they dont get gouged in the process of me trying to build in a fudge factor.

[Nebraska]

I would have to agree with Mac. I'm not in business to be proud of my new "stuff"; rather I'm in business to make money.

kinnanscaping we are in the same market / town. Since we began, cleanups have been priced hourly including a time estimate range. In our shared market we are ranging from $47 per man hour to $55 per man hour (with all of our "old" stuff) and have more work than three maintenance crews will be able to handle this fall. The key is to provide the time estimate range with these figures. There is plenty of work in the Omaha area for those doing it right. Just don't attempt to do it with an inch of snow on the ground like I witnessed today.....

[Greensmith]

We also bill hourly with an estimate. You never know how much time it will take to clean up the leaves, they might be wet/dry and it does affect times.

[prapoza]

I agree with Mac on that advice. We used to do them hourly and have been bidding everything for the past 7-8 years and making a lot more money that way. If you have some history and look back at your times and bid accordingly you will come out ahead.

I liked the no lose factor of doing things hourly but my clients sure didn't like it when their clean up price went from 350.00 one year to 475.00 the next because it was wet or whatever. They loved it when it went the other way but then had the same negative reaction the next year when it went up again for some reason. The majority (95%) of my clients were happy to switch to fixed (bid) price. We made more money, they knew in advance what their cost would be for maintenance for the year, everybodies happy.

[kinnanscaping]

I have decided that my biggest issue is timing and marketing. I didn't get the business set up until July--not exactly the beginning of the season. I am happy with where I got by the end of the landscaping season, and I look forward to the Spring. The fall clean-ups were too much of an after-thought. I did not put enough into marketing them. I am not even taking my company in a maintenance direction, so I don't know why I thought I could scramble up the clean-ups. The few people that did contact me were looking for something for free anyway.

It is a major internal struggle to justify pricing out something "correctly" versus just getting the darn job since I don't have any others. That is why I have the part time gigs for this winter. I don't want to be labeled a "cheap" contractor and be out of business next year, so I can grin-and-bear-it for a couple months working for someone else.

Thank you all for your input and advice.

[xxArbUtusxx]

I'm about a month behind on this thread, and hope you got it figured out for the Fall.

I agree with the last two. I give an hourly rate and a time estimate. Some customers will want to dictate the amount of time spent. If the time they want is not enough to make money at then that is where I would implement a minimum charge or decline the job and recommend another qualified PROFESSIONAL company.

Don't fudge on your pricing. Stick to them. You will find people that can afford and want you to do the clean ups.