[hardscaping4u]

after doing hardscape installations for almost 5 years now we are deciding to give it up for awhile and get back into doing maintenance and landscape installs. i was hjoping that you guys who have been doing maintenance might be able to give me some insight/advice on some marketing and crew operations, company operations, etc.

[Greensmith]

Why are you getting out of the hardscape market? I am trying to get it into my portfolio so I can sell complete jobs. You are a little north of me but I am curious of the market.

[hardscaping4u]

the reason we are getting out of hardscapes is for a fw reasons.
#1 reason is after almost 6 years of doing just hardscapes im getting a little burned out with it.

- i don't get enough work to support my business, with using multiple lead services
-it's very difficult to find experienced people
-it's even more difficult to train people
-all we really did was hardscapes so there really wasn't any return services that we could do.
-after taking certification classes and trying to do things the way manufacturers want, it doen't reallly seem to add up when a customer doesnt really care about overall quality but price.

we may get back into later on, its just that we are going to focus on doing maintenance and landscaping until we have the right mix of people and we can add other crews as we grow. this way there is more of a steadyt flow of work/cash coming in.

i'm not telling you not to get into it, just know what you are getting into.

we became to specialized, and i think in a way specialized ourselves out of work.

[4seasons]

why dont you offer hardscapes along w/ your landscaping? Be like a 1 stop shop for customers.

[hardscaping4u]

that is the eventual plan, i dont want to spread myself to thin and have my jobs reflect.

[Fine Edge]

That's why we don't take any certification classes. If you read enough, learn enough by trial and error, build your hardscapes to withstand an atomic explosion and warranty all your work, the referrals should keep coming.
But, like you, Hardscaping4U, I'm always wondering where my constant revenue stream will be coming from.

[Pelican]

In my area, maintenance accounts are not near as profitable as hardscaping. We are saturated with gypsies, guys who throw a mower on a truck or trailer and become instant landscapers after they get home from their real job. They keep the prices depressed, it's hard to make a living at it legitimately. I have a maintenance crew, it breaks even, but I use it for a marketing tool to bring in the other work.

I get work from my customers and their neighbors who see my lettered truck in the neighborhood. You'll have to bust your butt to make the same money cutting as you do building.

[Greensmith]

Oh, its the same here in Central NJ Pelican. Which is why I am surprised to see Hardscapings push into it. I make more money on installations then I do maintenance. Having a weekly/monthly presence in a neighborhood does have it's benefits though.

The maintenance field is brutal, some landscape owners have told me that it is virtually stagnant for bringing in more money. They attribute the second generation immigrants with starting their own companies and competing with the older companies. Since their overhead is virtually non-existant and most don't have full licensing forget about competing cost wise.

[HardDaysKnight]

One decent hardscaping job that takes 3 days to complete
can equal 2 or more weeks of mowing profits.
Every hardscape needs/or could use a planting.
Try to continue to do both.

[hardscaping4u]

i am glad to see what all you guys have to say about this.
i understand about all the second generation immigrants-and beware the fact that they are doing the same with the hardscapes. do you guys do just residential maintenance or do you mix it with commercial? i feel that i do great work in my hardscapes and we do guarantee our work but the problem is i'm doing about 75% of the work myself. every year i have the same struglle of finding good laborers. i don't how you guys find and keep good laborers. i don't like the idea of having illegals and paying cash for one. but the other problem is they arent any cheaper than hiring regular guys anymore, especially when you add the aggrevation of having to go and pick them up and drop them off everyday, i've told to go see if the multi-billion dollar mcdonalds will do that for them, they don't even give you a free meal when you work for them.

[hardscaping4u]

i also understand that hardscpes can be alot more profitable, but in order to make a good profit you need that good crew. i find myself underbidded on alot of jobs and i really cant see how these guys can install some of these jobs at such low prices. and this past year has literally almost put me out of business. right now im living off of borrowed money and praying that it starts to snow soon before things get any worse.

by the greensmith and harddaysknight how was your past year?

[johnkeegan]

It is extremely hard to get and maintain a quality hardscaping crew. It demands someone that has the combined qualities of basic construction knowhow (how to read a level, pitch etc.), ability to efficently use equipment , attention to detail (esp. base prep.) and willingness to do hard work. Most times you're lucky to find someone with just one of those traits (and it's usually not the last one).
Within one week I could easily teach someone to be proficient in planting installation/ maintenance. Even if they only listened 1/2 of the time. But the hardscaping has far too many areas to screw up. And it can come back to haunt you big time.
I find the design/plant installs to be the most profitable and least stressful. I show up, help with the prep work, lay out the plants and mark the bedlines and can usually leave by lunch and allow the crew to finish. I really don't need to be there to plant, mulch, edge etc.
Not so simple with the hardscaping because there are too many keys things that need to go right. Excavation/ base prep/ proper pitch on the screeding/ keeping the pattern square/ maintaining a consistant width on a curving walk/ tight cuts/ proper edging installation and polymer application. And then there's retaining walls, steps etc......
...so hardscaping4u I can empathise.
And for me, last year, the numbers were great but the employee attrition rate (esp. hardscaping) was depressing. I figure I need to hire non-native labor (legally). Again, with the planting installs the language issue may not matter much but I can't imagine the problems it might create on a complex hardscaping job.
And the ironic thing is that every year there seems to be a greater demand for the hardscaping. Probably because most homeowners don't mind doing their own planting (even if it looks horrible) but they don't have the equipment, knowhow or strength to do their own hardscaping.
...if anyone has a solution to this dilemma I'm all ears.

[synner]

Interesting that I caught this thread tonight. Just today we were discussing dropping our maintenance work and concentrating on the construction/hardscape. Our reasoning is that the maintenance crew will generate more revenue working on hardscape installs then they would cutting and maintaining. There is nothing wrong with the maintenance work, I enjoy the peace and quiet it gives me 2 days a week when I'm out chasing the mower but we've decided to build business in one or two areas instead of multiple facets.

[bcx400]

interesting topic...we do quite a bit of hardscaping- and don't cut lawns. I too have thought about at least doing less hardscaping next year- not getting out of it altogether- but raising my prices and concentrating more on planting installations. I have found the most profit is in planting.

Hardscaping seems to me to be the most pysically demanding work that we do. My back hurts just thinking about it. There are also a lot of guys willing to do pavers at prices that I can't come close to. Everybody wants to do pavers now. I say let 'em! Give me the planting jobs.

[synner]

We've started to concentrate on paving and woodwork because unlike plants, they don't die. Around here planting work needs a warranty and clients aren't willing to undertake the proper watering required for new planting installs.