[Mark Oomkes]

Originally posted by GLAN
No.....I am not wrong.....cause his entire scenario begins and ends with 1 person, 1 lawn, 1 hour.

With GK's further explanation using 2 and then 3 men......Then they should be doing 10 - 2 hour lawns, 10 - 3 hour lawns.........but it's not. It is all based on 10 - 1 hour lawns for 1 person.

And I will repeat.........Add a man onto a 1 man crew the time per account is less. Add a man to a 2 person crew the time per job becomes less.........Untill.............you can just scroll up and reread my post.

Let's get away from the minutes and hours and talk about dollars per hour. (Even though this comes down to minutes and hours).

FOR MY BUSINESS\CUSTOMERS, even though GLAN is absolutely correct that more trucks\mowers add overhead, I can not beat the dollars per hour that a 1 man crew makes me vs a 2 man or especially a 3 man crew. There is the inevitable conversations occuring when getting out of the truck and during unloading and not everyone getting finished at the same time. My employees are not animals, either, but I do expect them to do their best while making me money so I can pay them for their day's work that they provided me. And yes I can get sort of anal about minutes because minutes add up to hours add up to losing me money--and because they are required to be paid for the time they worked, and the people I owe money to (overhead) that only leaves one other piece of the pie for that money to come out of--MY PROFIT.

I would agree that arguing one size crew is small minded--including myself, because I don't always think about others situations, only my own, and how GLAN is providing a different type of the same service to his customers. I just wanted Steve to be aware of some other methods\theories before he started his 3 man crew or adding another crew.

[HardDaysKnight]

Originally posted by GLAN
1 or 2 man crews are cost prohibitive.

Set up dump truck and trailer....$50,000
Equipment........$10,000
Insurance for the truck and trailer.......aprox $5,000 annualy.

Better to have the 3 man crew or more.........Equipment needed for them.......

I don't understand how you can say that you have a guy standing around?

I run a 5 man cutting crew.........Average turf area 3,500 - 4,000 sqft. Even at one stop there is no one standing for any length of time.....And they average 40 per day just under 40 hours. 4, 10 hour days.

Doing my work with your method I would have to setup minimum 3 crews. 2 more dump trucks than I have now.....I would absolutely need 1 more trailer. Add to that the equipment.....more mowers than I actualy need.......more line trimmers than I actualy need........more blowers than I actualy need.........more hand tools than I actualy need.....

More over head.......more liability just to do the work I have now.

Makes no sense to me........I would still need the men. But now have the expense of more trucks, equipment, service, repairs, gas, Insurance......Parking rent and so on.

The additional over head would blow me away and put me out of business.

I wouldn't send out a 1 man crew to begin with........can't expect 1 person to remain completely focused all day every day. Same goes with 2 man crew. What if 1 is having an off day.......The other one gonna pick up the slack for the entire day? What if 1 is sick a day or a couple days? You gonna stop what you have to do to work on the cutting crew?

Working like that you become a slave to your business and crews. Cause you pickup the slack where it is needed. 1 person don't show up. You fill in........What if 2 don't show? What if 1 has an appointment for what ever reason.......You stop your scheduled work?

I would be damned to stop my scheduled work to sit on the maintenance crew a day......As it is I don't have a back up driver so I am a slave to the crew when the time comes.

And who the hell realy cares if at any given stop in the day 1 man stands waiting 1, 2 or 3 minutes.....The men under my employ are not animals

Everything written here makes total sense to me. And if we
get to the point where we are getting irate with a few minutes
here and there of unproductivity, we will lose men real fast.
Keep in mind the many differences we have as far as regions
go. Very rural to almost urban can change drastically how we approach our daily routine.

[Mark Oomkes]

Originally posted by HardDaysKnight
Everything written here makes total sense to me. And if we
get to the point where we are getting irate with a few minutes
here and there of unproductivity, we will lose men real fast.
Keep in mind the many differences we have as far as regions
go. Very rural to almost urban can change drastically how we approach our daily routine.

Keep in mind your own words about regional differences. I do not have any problem at all keeping single man crews focused and productive. Most of them like it, they are wholly responsible for the work being performed and willing to take the bad with the good.

Didn't say I get irate, said I get anal and make sure they watch their times which is really my profit.

[HardDaysKnight]

Originally posted by Mark Oomkes
Keep in mind your own words about regional differences. I do not have any problem at all keeping single man crews focused and productive. Most of them like it, they are wholly responsible for the work being performed and willing to take the bad with the good.

Didn't say I get irate, said I get anal and make sure they watch their times which is really my profit.

Mark, what I meant about regional difs is that where I and
Glan live there are much smaller lots, on street parking
etc. as opposed to your immediate area as well as others.
I never said you got irate, I said IF WE START getting....
There is no reason for anger here, just an excellent opportunity
to learn and trade ideas. Johnny

[GLAN]

Mark

I won't pretend to know how things look in Grand Rapids Michigan.......the developements and how they are designed and all that. Or the expectations of the property owners.

I understand your point, it is the same as GK's. You know what? You both are correct. Cost and productivity, 1 man is going to get it done with the least labor cost. But......we can't just factor into a job just the labor costs. LOL. you both know that.

Now I am guessing that your routes are kinda spread out. That is why the need for multiple crews of 1 or 2 men. And your productivity is not that large or needs to be in a day. Like someone mentioned earlier, they do half of what I do in a day for the week. It's all good.

We set up our routes to best suite our needs. If I were in a more spread out rural area.......I think there would be little doubt I would be running multiple crews of only a couple men per crew. It would be nearly impossible to have one large crew all over the place....That would not be cost effective.

My situation is that everything is very close. The only exception is a large grouping that is about 15 - 20 minutes away. In fact in the late 80's we were doing some 60+ more homes when I ran 2, 3 man maintenance crews. There is no way I could get that productivity from the one 5 man crew. Unless.........I develope the groupings more and expand on them.

Now this thread was to assist Pelican make a decision for instant ability to take on more customers. There is no other way to do that than to hire the 3rd man for the crew. My whole point through all this was that 2 men will do more than 1 man. 3 men will do more than 2 men......as a single crew. This is absolute.....no way around the fact that adding a person increases productivity. That is what Pelican needed to do immediately.

He didn't need to buy another truck, trailer and equipment to send out another crew. Take on the work now, set money asside and when there is the need for the next move.........You buy the truck, trailer and equipment........and hire that 4th person and now send out 2, 2 man crews.

Now I am assuming that what Pelican is describing about turning down work is not the amount that warrants an immediate second route........He has to sign them up first. Not like he bought a route.

[Pelican]

Maybe if I add some additional info it will help sort things out.

Yes, I was looking for an immediate band-aid. I've broken into a couple high end development and the business is snowballing. I got a call from one of the new accounts where the client said he had had 3 previous landscapers doing his place and my guys are blowing them away. His neighbors are signing up about one a week. I can't pass this up, most of my accounts require a 5 to 10 minute drive in between, here I can service currently 7 accounts moving the truck only a few hundred yards, in fact my zero turn operator just drives to the next job. These are 2 1/2 to 3 acre lots and take about 40 minutes to service with the 2 man crew.

From reading what I've seen here, I'll probably eventually put together another crew, perhaps 1 man to start. It's unfortunate all this extra business is coming when I'm already tied up replacing aged equipment, this has capitol in a depleted state. The old equipment isn't worth keeping even for secondary work, it's become too unreliable and reliability is what I've built the business on. I'll try to get through this season with the 3rd man or if profits allow put together the second outfit a bit sooner.

I'm grateful for all the responses here. Thanks!

[GLAN]

Dude


Do what's best for you...

Increase productivity.........keep expenses down.

[HardDaysKnight]

I wish you well and it's great to hear you're obtainining
these new accounts and possibly more.
I hope you come up with a solution and have a very
profitable year. Good Luck!!

[Mark Oomkes]

Great thread, great differing opinions, great discussion.

GLAN and HardDaysKnight, I agree with what you have both said. I was small minded thinking my way is the best because it is for me. I also realize that this was to help Steve right away.

But, even though this is the best way to immediately increase production, it is not necessarily the best way in the long run and I guess I should have stated that better. Once again this depends on the regional differences. It may or may not be best, only Steve will be able to determine that by checking his times both ways.

I know exactly where he is at right now, growing with older equipment, possibly limited capital--not sure where he is on this, not trying to grow, but not wanting to turn down good work, either. If he is not careful, he will lose more money and not be able to make it up by just throwing a third person on a crew and never going back to make sure he is still meeting his budgeted times. It is possible that where he is at right now with his crews working 12 hours a day, that he most likely has enough work for a second crew. I know you can't go out and buy a whole new mowing setup overnight, but he needs to look at how much work he has right now and be aware that the third person is short term and not necessarily, but possibly the long term solution.

I think I mentioned it before someplace in this thread, by actually scheduling our crews for 40 hours worth of work and greatly reducing (not eliminating) OT, I have turned our company around financially. I contribute this mostly to the elimination of tons of OT and getting our work done in the budgeted amount of time.

[Bill Schwab]

Mark:

Somehow we gotta talk ole Mr. Carver into joining this forum. He would be an asset!

[Mark Oomkes]

Bill, only if we can get him to use paragraphs. lol

I agree, though. Let's see what we can do.

[Pelican]

I caught a break!!!

I was at my equipment dealer's and someone had posted a used machine. It's a 6 month old Skag 61 hydro, 12 hours and $2000 off new price! It was too good to pass up, so by the end of the week, I'll have and the new machines should be in by then too. We should be able to squeeze them all on the trailer and now I can have the third guy grab a mower when the trimming is done. It will really help on the larger jobs!

My luck usually doesn't run this way......

[Bill Schwab]

Pelican:

Are you a Mark Martin fan?

[Pelican]

LOL! What was your first clue, Bill?

I reread my post and realize I even sound a bit like him!!

[Mark Oomkes]

Hey Bill, I looked in the member list and Rick is registered, just has never posted.