[AZTLANLC]

I agree 100% with mark.
Last year I run a 3 man crew and time saved was only 20% on the best day.
So this year went back to 2 man crew and hourly profit is much better.
I had to get rid of some accounts but I'm getting to the point where I need another crew so for now I'm doing mowin once a week to help my guys but I will add a one man crew pretty soon since I already have the equipment for it.

Maybe another suggestion would be to hire another guy and get another walk behind mower with a sulky and send him to do the small properties even if he goes a little slower than your other guys production time will be the same or better.

[Pelican]

Thanks for all the responses, some great ideas! Most of my accounts are 1 to 2 acres of grass, I try to keep a rate of $75 to $80/hour for a 2 man/machine crew. With the number of gypsies around here, that's the best I can do and still remain competitive. I market myself on quality and reliability to get little more, but I can't squeeze too hard.

I think the immediate solution will be a third man with the idea of putting a second truck together for the single man crew. This will take a while, it will mean a substantial investment. Thanks everyone!

[GLAN]

Great thread

The info provided is quite interesting...and for me it was rather difficult to understand.......That was until I realized "Location"

Along with "Location" I have to remember not every where in America do Landscapers operate as myself and those around me. 2 man crews........that would not cut it to well where I am. And yet it seems the normal thing through this thread. 1 man crews......Oh hey, that is just not going to fly where I am.

The idea of less men on the payroll intriques me a great deal. It just won't work where I am. I am not sure if I am blessed or cursed with the location that I live and work.

Here I am pushing that more men will be quicker and get more work done......enough work that it pays for the extra man, plus profit. But then I average about 40 lawns a day, 4 days a week and 1 day of commercial management. Each and every property is done so as if it is Buckingham Palace

[cutntrim]

You do half as many in a day as we do in a week. Majority of my residentials are around 5k ft in size. Three guys trip over each other on such little lots. Three works fine for larger (>1a) lots and commercial (bed work) properties.

Residentially, we do "lawn maintenance", commercially it's all-encompassing "property maintenance". I've never been to Buckingham Palace, but I do like to keep the lawns looking like Yankee Stadium.

[Mark Oomkes]

GLAN, whether you say can or you can't you are correct. Henry Ford.

It may not work for you, your work is definitely different than ours. We do 98% commercial, but we leave them looking like Yankee Stadium as well. Being totally ignorant of your situation, I would think it would be possible to have a dedicated bed maintenance crew going around weekly so your mowing crews could keep moving and keep that equipment producing. If I were you I sure would at least try it.

Steve, I hate to look short term because in the long run it usually costs more, but like AZTLANLC suggested, but what about a 60" walk behind with rocket wheels. In our situation, one can be used on most of our properties and are just as fast on the smaller properties that have quite a few obstacles. It's just the wide open properties that a Z is faster. But to reduce the startup costs if you have to buy a truck, trailer, mower, etc, this could be an option.

We are able to get $75-$80 per hour per man with a 1 man crew. A 2 man crew very seldom will come close to that on a regular basis.

[GLAN]

Mark

Not a bad idea......and if we were only commercial I can certainly see that working like that. The other nice thing regarding that is the property manager sees that your company is reprisented on sight more than just one day.

When you are combining the crews route with both commercial and residential.....the idea of having a follow up crew doing beds or other odds and ends would not go over to well with residents. I would not want workers on my property more than the 1 time they need to be there. Your scenario would mean that a cutting crew can do my home on Wednesday but it maybe Thursday that the bed crew gets there? or Friday?

It's a nice concept and yet more costly due to the need of another vehicle.

We are one stop that's it. Lawn cut, edged, line trimmed and beds, blown down to street made into piles and we sweep it up. Lawn applications are done at the same time when they are needed.

[Pelican]

Well I sent a third man out today for the first time and they shaved about 4 hours off the run. They got rained out 2/3 through the day so a few accounts remain. I'm pleased with the results, they should get better as the new man learns the accounts.

The calls for new accounts are still coming in, I'm afraid a second crew will become a necessity before long. I'm concerned about the investment and added equipment to maintain. As it is now, it seems I'm repairing something almost every morning.

Just to give an example of what I'm facing here, I visited a prospective account this evening in a neighborhood I have several other accounts in. I made the client an offer that is slightly below my regular rate because there would be no travel involved and she gasped! On a job I anticipate taking 35 to 40 minutes, she is paying $30 to have cut. It's not cut to my standards, but it's not atrocious either. Earlier in the season, I had a snow customer request an annual lawn contract, another contractor beat my bid by 1/3! I figure it's only a matter of time before these guys are out of business, either by default or deception.

[GroundKprs]

How about doing it by the numbers? One man cuts 10 one hour lawns a day, and travel time between each averages 8 minutes.

10 x 60 = 600 min, and
11 x 8 = 88 min, for a total of 688 min, or 11 hrs 28 min.

Now how many man hours for a two man crew? First of all, from tracking times for many years, you have to add 2 minutes to each job for each additional person (unloading & loading extra machine). And travel time is doubled because two guys are traveling.

10 x 62 = 620
11 x 8 x 2 = 176, for a total of 796 min, or 13 hrs 16 min.

And for a 3 man crew:

10 x 64 = 640
11 x 8 x 3 = 264, for a total of 904 min, or 15 hr 4 min.

So to have three in place of one, you're adding over 3½ hours of payroll to get the same work done. And that's providing they all keep moving - which others tell me does not happen with more than 2 man crews.

Each business needs to balance their own individual numbers to decide on crew numbers and when to add another unit.

[GLAN]

GK

There is a flaw in your computation.

It no longer takes a 2 person crew 1 hour to cut the same lawn it takes 1 person 1 hour.

As it will not take a 3 person crew the same amount of time to cut the same lawn the 2 person crew is cutting.

Each additional person on the crew decreases the work time per account.

This carries through till there is a point where there are to many men and you will have people standing around.

One other factor that will influence man power needs is the make up of the route.......Does the route have large clusters? or many 1 or 2 stops with needed drive time between.

[dan deutekom]

Glan

I believe GK is correct. Remember that we are talking man hours to cut the grass not the time that it took. 60 guys with scissors will cut it in 1 minute but it is still one man hour of work.

My own personal experience in the distance past is that for most residential work the optimum crew size seemed to be 2 and for larger commercial work 3. Whenever I had 3 out in the smaller residential jobs, 2 guys would be waiting around for 2 or 3 minutes while the 1 guy finishes cleaning, loading, trimming or what have you because it just wasn't worth firing up a piece of equipment or getting a tool for a couple of minutes work. Also it just takes longer to get more workers out of a truck and started working due to conversations and other general human nature issues.

The trouble is that over the course of a day these minutes tend to add up to a couple hours of lost production.

I think the smaller the crew you can send out on a job the better off you are.

[GLAN]

No.....I am not wrong.....cause his entire scenario begins and ends with 1 person, 1 lawn, 1 hour.

With GK's further explanation using 2 and then 3 men......Then they should be doing 10 - 2 hour lawns, 10 - 3 hour lawns.........but it's not. It is all based on 10 - 1 hour lawns for 1 person.

And I will repeat.........Add a man onto a 1 man crew the time per account is less. Add a man to a 2 person crew the time per job becomes less.........Untill.............you can just scroll up and reread my post.

[turfdude]

I guess it all depends on account size as well as route density. A lot of my accounts fall in the 5000 sq ft range. For the most part, I wouldn't consider a 3 man crew for lawns of this size because they would be tripping over each other unless every stop had multiple properties. Now for props of 8000-1 acre or more, I can justify a 3rd guy. We have 2 - 2men crews M-W, then add a 3rd guy to one of the crews Th& Fr.

Keep good records for a couple of weeks w/ 2, compare to adding the 3rd guy. See what your gross per man per day is for both. Also, you must answer your own question of how much you want your company to grow and how fast. Every time you grow, be ready for a few more headaches. Sooner than later, you'll find yourself doing a lot more babysitting.

[GroundKprs]

I have tracked times on every job for 25 years (and still do, to see if I am slowing down with age, LOL). And I've timed the same jobs with 1, 2 or 3 people. If you do not have numbers to back up your arguement, you're just wasting typing time.

The simple fact is, if you have 3 one man crews, each working 10 hours a day, you cannot accomplish the same work in 10 hours with one 3 man crew, because of the extra few minutes of loading and unloading at each job, and the extra windshield time for 3 guys to go from job to job.

This has to be calculated for each business, and of course will depend on the sizes of property serviced and the density of service areas. Even in one business, you may find it best to run some one man crews, some twos or threes, and maybe even larger ones.

To argue that a particular sized crew is best is small minded. You need to calculate for your own setup to get the most profitable arrangement for yourself. The larger the crew, the higher your payroll will be to accomplish your work; but you do save by not having extra truck and trailer expenses. The astute businessman will know when to add the next truck, if he tracks his numbers properly.

[GLAN]

1 or 2 man crews are cost prohibitive.

Set up dump truck and trailer....$50,000
Equipment........$10,000
Insurance for the truck and trailer.......aprox $5,000 annualy.

Better to have the 3 man crew or more.........Equipment needed for them.......

I don't understand how you can say that you have a guy standing around?

I run a 5 man cutting crew.........Average turf area 3,500 - 4,000 sqft. Even at one stop there is no one standing for any length of time.....And they average 40 per day just under 40 hours. 4, 10 hour days.

Doing my work with your method I would have to setup minimum 3 crews. 2 more dump trucks than I have now.....I would absolutely need 1 more trailer. Add to that the equipment.....more mowers than I actualy need.......more line trimmers than I actualy need........more blowers than I actualy need.........more hand tools than I actualy need.....

More over head.......more liability just to do the work I have now.

Makes no sense to me........I would still need the men. But now have the expense of more trucks, equipment, service, repairs, gas, Insurance......Parking rent and so on.

The additional over head would blow me away and put me out of business.

I wouldn't send out a 1 man crew to begin with........can't expect 1 person to remain completely focused all day every day. Same goes with 2 man crew. What if 1 is having an off day.......The other one gonna pick up the slack for the entire day? What if 1 is sick a day or a couple days? You gonna stop what you have to do to work on the cutting crew?

Working like that you become a slave to your business and crews. Cause you pickup the slack where it is needed. 1 person don't show up. You fill in........What if 2 don't show? What if 1 has an appointment for what ever reason.......You stop your scheduled work?

I would be damned to stop my scheduled work to sit on the maintenance crew a day......As it is I don't have a back up driver so I am a slave to the crew when the time comes.

And who the hell realy cares if at any given stop in the day 1 man stands waiting 1, 2 or 3 minutes.....The men under my employ are not animals

[GLAN]

Originally posted by GroundKprs

To argue that a particular sized crew is best is small minded.

Easy there GK cause that would go for everyone involved with this thread.


In closing

You stated your self the added expense for Truck, trailer and all that goes with that.

So for Pelicans situation........What was more cost effective? Adding a guy to the crew or adding a guy and buying a truck, trailer and equipment to go with it?

Wonder why you accuse me of arguing?