[GroundKprs]

I was just introduced this week to Logan Labs in OH. Basic tests are pricey, at $25, but quality seems to be unparalleled. Founder is from Brookside Labs. On the basic soil testing, including base saturation, every 20th sample is a calibration sample. If calibration sample is off, machine is recalibrated and previous 19 tests are re-run.

They also do saturated paste testing, to determine exactly how much of soil nutrient is actually available. Also water, tissue and fertilizer testing available.

Neat seminar: How can lime bring an 8.4 pH down to 6.5?

[NC Lawnscapes]

The home test I do is basically to see if a plant will survie in the soil or will I need to ammend the soil and get it up to level for the said plant to survive there.

IE is the Ph high or low do I neeed to plant a box wood or a holly here

[GLAN]

Originally posted by GroundKprs
Neat seminar: How can lime bring an 8.4 pH down to 6.5?

It cant

[GroundKprs]

Sorry, GLAN. pH reading is a result of exchangeable H ion percentage in base saturation. A highly out of balance Mg percentage, usually meaning a low Ca percentage, will often drive off all H ions. High pH soils have a low or zero H percentage. If you can get H of 10% in base saturation, you have pH of 6.3.

The best way to drive off really high Mg (Mg nearly equal Ca or higher) is with calcitic limestone, with Ca:Mg proportion of 4:1. As you start making headway, you can switch to gypsum to have the sulphur drive off more Mg. As Ca and Mg approach proper balance, sites open up for H.

Seminar instructor showed us Wed. just how he did change a 8.4 pH to 6.5 with loads of calcitic lime to start. Initial Mg percentage in this instance was much higher than Ca, while ideal is 1:5 to 1:6.

[GLAN]

Well............that's all well and good..

I must be old school then.....

Cause all I ever remember when concerning PH is that Lime increases while Alumimun Sulfate or Sulfer will lower it.

Gypsum is ineffective to the point of being highly cost prohibitive

Then again.......I am a product of schooling that is specific for my area soils and growing climate. And probably the best location for gardening in the country.....Soils that drain within hours of a 3" rain, silty loam that is easy to work with, predictable and easy to manage PH. Go a little North on the Island we encounter more rock within the soil and a small increase of clay content.

I will never have basic soil

It's great that you were at that seminar. Can't go wrong with continuing education. Anyone with a pesticide license has to. I have to take the information from seminars and apply it to practical uses. I would never attempt if I had to decrease soil PH as you describe.....that information is mute as far as I am concerned due to it not being pratical.....

And with concerns of plant performance in it's environment. I only have to be concerned with practical analysis to provide an optimum growing environment. I'll leave the rocket science to the researchers. That's their job, and they will provide me with practical solutions.


Those not comfortable with doing home/field soil testing and analysis. Perhaps that is cause of lack of confidence in ones ability and or not doing enough of them.

[GroundKprs]

Yes, that thinking is definitely old school. But if it works great for you in your area, why change? I have nearly perfect soils here, too. But there are a few places that have bugged me for years, and a big one two years ago that I turned down because it was way over my head. Now my head and my work have a whole new tool.

If you are placing all your eggs in simple chemistry tests, and have no use for base saturation, in most parts of the country you are just scratching the surface of real plant care.

[GLAN]

Yes.......I understand that I am only dealing in basics with my approach......it works for me and those that I serve. If I need to send a soil test out....I do so with concerns of contamination.

I had to do that only once.....and found that the soil the previous gardener used for the planting had gotten a couple yards of compost made soil that was highly contaminated with weed killer. Anything planted died within months.......only plants to survive were annuals........this was due to the annuals having been planted at the surface..........Where as B&B Arborvitaes have a deeper root ball. The contamination was leaching down, but only to where the existing soil was compacted and they just piled new soil ontop for planting.

First.........not breaking up the existing soil was not smart.....The contamination.....well some irresponsible or not licensed LCO must have dumped probably granular weed killer or weed and feed into his garbage load to get rid of it......who knows?


I suspected contamination right from the start cause of what was being killed and what was growing...

I offered 2 solutions.........1- to bring in an evironmental cleanup company to get rid of the soil.......or.......dig out the soil, break up and provide good drainage of the pre-existing soil.....replace the soil and wait for the contamination to leach through.


Chose option 2.......When I did this.........I had easy access to horse manuer.....I added manuer to the soil to bring in organic matter and active biologicals to help break down the weed killer.

2 seasons later we replanted and that was back around 1989....prior to that for 4 or 5 years the previous guy kept planting and they kept dieing.


Other than that one incident......I have not had to send soil for analysis

[Bill Schwab]

Since we don't do much with turf other than lay it, I had not been following this thread...You guys got some good stuff to share!

Having come from Illernoyzz which has some of the richest soils, and transplanted to CA where we have basic garbage, the methodology is a different than back east. Typically, our soils are filled with nutrients, but the problem is density. Simply adding water to transfer the good stuff to the plants would cause alot of runnoff, so, what we do for those who are dedicated green thumbs is install a Fertigator to the irrigation system for a nominal fee. We try to select plants that don't require a great deal of water, and our turf of choice for full sun is a hybridized fescue commonly known as "Bonsai", or, Martathon 2. Water is pretty scarce around here, and those who use alot of it, typically have to refinance their houses to pay the bills if you catch my drift..
The fertigators job is to disperse some fertilizers, but mainly, liquid calcium, which, works alot better than using gypsum, which we buy buy the dump truck load when installing a new yard. The gypsum works for an initial kick, and the liquid calcium is primarily for maintenance....Then, we toss in some worm castings, because typically, there ain't no bait squirming around our dirt.

PH is on the high 8 side no matter where you go, and many of the soils inland toward the mountains are DG. Amendments of choice are typically compost, organic compost, and as much as you can afford to grind in, so when it breaks down, the hopes are that you leave something usable. The most expensive part of amending is trucking off the spoils, simply because no one wants any fines, and they cost in the area of $200.00 a load to get rid of.
Anything you do to the top of our soil without doing the base prep work, will give limited results, as I mentioned before, there is alot of runoff and if you can't get the good stuff into the dirt, it does us no good...

[GroundKprs]

So, Bill, you seem to be in an area that is a little difficult for turf. Have you or anyone else there used Dr. Albrecht's base saturation percentage theories to try to modify your soil chemical structure?

The pH seems to be a major problem for you. What is the base percentage ratio of Ca and Mg in your soils? Until you know that, use of gypsum or lime is basically guesswork.

And to me, use of compost is functional only as an inoculant. Compost is partially decayed organic matter. In a short time the compost is decayed to basically nothing. If you have not established a sustaining chemical, physical and biological medium for plant existence, the compost is a short term crutch.

[Bill Schwab]

Jim:

I'm not sure, but, you got my gears turning...I will find out...You just might be on to a way we can use yet less water than necessary....Everyone is pushing California natives, like Ceanothus, (California Lilac) which, don't require a whole lot of anything to make work.

[GLAN]

Bill

You may find this interesting

http://www.calflora.net/botanicalnam...mmunities.html

[Bill Schwab]

Thanks for the link Glan!

Pretty cool stuf for future usage.