[GroundKprs]

This dissertation is basically considering original installation or replacement of a turf area. Minor repairs to a turf area are often better accomplished with sod for aesthetic reasons.

Choice

The major reason for using seed is choice: maybe some markets have a great choice of sod farms, here we have 3. But even if your area has 2 dozen, I'll have hundreds to thousands of choices if I am using seed. (Includes the various combos from seed functional in this area.) Sod is grown on open farm fields - so how do you get a sod that does well in the shade? Even in sunny area use, seed is the much preferred course. With seed you can select the best species for the particular environmental conditions of the site.
How does one begin to pick his seed? Well, you could learn all you need thru NTEP. For me, I just have a great supplier who I describe the site to, and he gets me the seed I need. The one time I thought I had a problem with a renovation seeding, he had a seed company rep on site within 10 days, and I got advice straight from the horse's mouth on that one.

Transplant shock

There is also the consideration of how sod is grown, and where it's transplanted. Due to production developers and builders today, any new site is usually not ready for landscaping. Any existing topsoil has been removed or buried, construction activity has caused compaction, and numerous other grievous sins committed.
When considering turf installation, you must remember that the sod farmer has given his product a premium environment, in order to have a good looking product and to turn the fields over as quickly as possible. When sod is removed from this premium environment and placed on lifeless soil, it will founder for about five years before adapting and starting to grow properly. Seed, on the other hand, does not know anything but what it germinates in, and does its best with what it has. I have heard so many times from new homeowners with a sodded front yard and seeded back, "How come the seed looks better after the first year? Shouldn't the sod be way ahead of seed?" Soil modification would usually have to be quite extensive to get a sodded lawn looking as good as seed two years after installation.

I have learned through experience that seed will give a better long term turf stand - because of reasons listed above. This is in northern cool season turf. There are some grass types as you get further south that must be sodded for successful establishment. But, my gosh, where does C3 sod come from? Maybe from seed, LOL.

I had a friend in the biz, now retired, who would always recommend seed. He had a good sized biz, with a lot of new commercial and light industrial installs. If the client insisted on sod, he charged for the extra work, plus a penalty fee, because he knew the sodded lawn would not look as good as his seed for the next 5 years. And the penalty fee was to assuage his pain in seeing such a poor lawn that he had installed.

So this is why, telling an agronomist or other serious turfgrass manager that sod is better than seed is akin to telling your football teammates that you wear women's underwear.

[GroundKprs]

An Afterthought......

Of course, you do make more money with sod, on a given jobsite, if that is your main purpose. But I will get a higher profit percentage doing seed on the same site. And I'm handling a few pounds of seed, versus tons of sod. When you're as old as me, you have to work wiser.

[johnkeegan]

You bring up some great points but I've never had a customer unhappy with a sodding job, seeding on the other hand... The basic problem is that no matter what any customer says, they all want a golf course...NOW!

[shawn]

Do you do hydro seeding at all or is it over rated.

[NC Lawnscapes]

I still dont see how that makes one a pansy just because he is smart enought to know how to sell install and Maintain Sod.

We live in a microwave society and we can all agree to that.

When I have a builder contact me and want scaping done on 3 houses just built in a neighborhood and he says the lots are1/8th an acre and he wants two trees in front 12 shrubs in front and lawn seeded in back and sod laid in front yard and wants it done asap so he can close on the house who am I to argue??

Better yet have you ever tried to grow GRASS SEED in the middle of July here in NC ..............Good luck but if you will lay sod and have a good water supply then you have no worries.

You may consider it being a pansy but I call it working with what you have acess to and what works for you.

[GroundKprs]

Where is the word "pansy" in my postings? The football player - women's underwear analagy is just to show how sod is looked down on by knowledgable turf managers. Yes, installers can do whatever they want to make a place appear good, and make a buck at it. I'm just informing people that with some knowledge and persistence, one can gain a reputation of excelling in turf management.

Yes, a lot of McDonald franchisees make good money selling hamburgers. But some people prefer châteuabriand. You need to sell a heck of a lot of hamburgers to match the profit of one châteaubriand dinner. And working as a chef is so much more rewarding than the McJob.

And you can grow grass seed anywhere you want, if you put your mind to it. A buddy of mine had a college friend who kept grass growing on the back floor of his car - from seed.

[GroundKprs]

Almost forgot: hydroseeding....Yeecch!!

In my area, hydroseeders' bread and butter is ryegrass. Rye germinates and grows so quickly, the client is happy and sends the check right away. But then the disease starts.......... One teacher last year listed problems of rye, ending with, "...and is probably also susceptable to the common cold." LOL

My "sodding penalty" buddy above started using subcontracted hydroseeders when it first came out. Technician on truck was so good, my buddy quit lining ornamental beds with cardboard to prevent overspray. But after a few jobs, when he saw what came up, he required that he meet the truck on the jobsite, and watch them pour his own supplied seed into tank. They were using junk seed to make a few more bucks on a job.

Perhaps there is a hydroseeder somewhere who knows and cares to use good seed, but I won't hold my breath until I meet him. I'm sure some of the quality landscapers on this site know how to use a hydroseeder to establish a premium lawn.

[Dale Wiley]

Several things going on here:

Builder analogy:

Go ahead and sod them, the builder as written does not care. Occupancy permit is all that matters. Since when do builders care about anybody but themselves and particuarly the clients ???

Sod and sod growers :

Business Goal: Maximize profit. Use shit weed, floor sweeping seed to save .50 cents per pound on seeding cost. No worries about how it looks in 2 months or 2 years, because that would be the contractors problem.

Hydro seeders:

Re read business goal of sod growers. Hope that stupid contractor does not specify a seed variety so you can get rid of that crap seed leaking all over the shop. If contractor does specify seed, try and substitute crap seed with out contractor knowing about it. Hope that contractor does not come to site, or want to supply the seed. That will reduce profit.

Contractor seeding grass:

Being able to use a know quality seed and control all aspects of the establishment process and not being dependent upon other business's lack of brains and ethics. We can seed anything from 500 square feet to acres. Brillion makes a great drill seeder that will seed and cover quite well on the larger projects traditionally hydroseeded.

[Green4Me]

Jim, hold you breath, you just met him.

Your post brings up some great points and I would love to have the construction budget to amend project soils to perfection and produce an exquisite lawn, but we have to deal with the soils we are given and make the best of what we have . now.

As for seed vs sod. Very few owners area willing to put the 3 months of good care into a lawn to make it grow right. Sod is instant.

As for hydroseeding, I do hydroseeding as part of my landscape business and take great care in what I do and I like the method for certain, but not all applications. And I can grow a decent lawn with my product. Quality of seed is important to the finished product, as is water, as is soils, and aftercare.

Few homeowners can afford 21,000sf of sod, but an affordable alternative is hydroseeding or dry seeding and can produce a very nice lawn if they are willing to work at it.

In the end I do what is best for the project, whether hydroseeding, sod or dryseed.

MKK

[Paul]

I have to chime in here about the sod grower in our area. The larger ones that I have used all had quality blue grass sod. Having known them for many years I have direct knowledge of the seed types that they use. The product they produce is grown from all blues grass seed. They do adjust their mixtures from year to year as newer seed types come out. They also use more than one type of blue grass seed. We have 5 large sod producers in our area each has over 500 acres in production with the largest having over 1500 acres. I would gladly take any one who would like on a tour of a couple of them during their seeding time so they can see what they use and how they prep for seed.

I have more of a concern of the seed from rewholesalers. They use seed mixes that stay static from year to year. Most are mixes of blues, rye, and fescues. My other concern is the mixes that we get from Landscape architects, some have not changed mixes in 10 years. Now we add that they want finished stands in less than one year. All the while they want to restrict our use of water. While our sod producers will not sell a product thats less than 18 months old, thats grown under ideal conditions with proper care feeding and weed control. I should also mention that all sod sold here must carry an inspection tag from the state that lists all varieties and certifies that it is weed free.

[GroundKprs]

Originally posted by Green4Me
......I do hydroseeding as part of my landscape business...

I was targeting the production hydroseeders in my post above, Green. I also said there would be decent landscapers on this board (who have hydroseeders as part of their business) who do know how to do it properly. The production outfits will shoot whatever is cheapest. I think I might enjoy maintaining your landscapes.

Paul, there is no question that a good number of sod growers do produce a quality turf. But when you factor in that 5 year recovery from the transplant shock (especially in a poor growing medium), seed will always win. And being just a small biz with a good rep, I can select the clients who will follow my care directions on a seeding job. And to protect my rep, I'm ready to walk away any time I don't get cooperation.

M/M C. are great clients. Rye seed hit ground 6/22/04. Regular mowing began 7/2/04. (Gad, I just checked logs. I thought it was 13 days until right now.) Very cooperative client, and their lawn showed it the rest of the year. They were so happy, that we decided to leave the rye (it was supposed to be a temp cover for fall KBG seeding) to see if they can tolerate the disease for the next year or 2.

[GLAN]

I agree with GK's arguement here of sod vs. seed.

Though I do not follow it.

If given the opportunity that an entire lawn area is to be redone....I will not even discuss seed with the customer. I only talk about Sod....Now, if the area that is to be repaired is within an existing lawn. I will not discuss sod. I only talk about Seed.

Given an entire front or back lawn area.....Sod is the way we go. Instant lawn......We cut in about 2 weeks, and it is usuable for the client in a month....Seeding an entire lawn area is prone to incosistencies due to water, wind, sunlight, etc......I have to return once or more to add in more seed. 10 days - 2 weeks for germination.....spot seeding......waiting.....4 - 6 weeks from the beginning we might be looking at the first cut.....OH........Damn! Weeds!!!!! from existing soil due to all the rototilling and so on, and the 1, 2% or more of weed seed contained in the mix. 8 - 10 weeks from start something has to be done for the weeds. And yet the turf is not usable by the client for there realy is not much root system.....After 12 weeks we can allow light use of the turf.


Areas within the turf that are in need of renovation or repair. Depending on the make up of the turf.....if it is from sod and is several year or less old......then I will use sod. It will look the same. If the lawn is older, no matter if it was sod it has been seeded into over the years. Or perhaps started from seed, then we will only use seed for the job.....Cause it will look the same.

[cutntrim]

For shade tolerance, and small patch repairs, I prefer seed. For an entire lawn? I agree with the others that vote for sod, although I must admit that the quality we get from Ontario Sod (a.k.a. Green Horizons) tends to vary quite a bit from order-to-order. Then again, I do very little in the way of lawn installs (or renos) so it does not affect me much. I think the conditions underneath the turf (i.e. soil) and above the turf (i.e. trees) are more important to its success than the choice of sod vs. seed. That and the follow-up care that the owner/manager will give it.

[GroundKprs]

Some people are really missing the point here. I'm not trying to say everyone has to do it with seed. Only point that cannot be argued is that seed allows the best choice for any particular site. And even then, if you have enough lead time, you can specify the seed to a good sod farm and install exactly the perfect sod for the site.

But if a simple yard boy like me can learn enough to be able to seed a lawn on 6/22, start mowing it on 7/2, and have a children's birthday party on that lawn in late July, it would seem that people who consider seeding a distant second choice are just not open minded, or don't want to learn how to do it. I cannot have a Super Bowl field ready to play 28 days after seeding, like they did at New Orleans in the 70s, but 99% of the time my seeded job will look better than a next door sodded job within less than a year after installation.

Only time I ever had an erosion problem was the time I tested a small area with PennMulch - that washed away and adjacent straw was perfect (1"+ of rain in 15 min @ 6 DAS). I have seen a 100% slope seeded without any erosion (wheat, not turfgrass).

And I agree whole heartedly, client care after the seed hits the ground is a key ingredient of my success. But how many really communicate with a client? I like the client communication part of the biz - have even taught some to read the turf color change to regulate irrigation. Lady I met last summer thinks I'm a turf wizard; her lawn was dramatically better 10 days after we first met. I keep reminding her that she is the one who turned the irrigation off - I just told her that was the problem, LOL. But if they don't listen, I'm history to them. In time, the sincere clients will come to you.

[NCSULandscaper]

Now im opposite of most......i prefer seed to sod. I can grow a yard thats better and thicker to sod in just a few weeks. Seed doesnt require as much water as sod, and i know most people if they do not have automatic irrigation they are not going to water sod........and as we all know once it dries out its gone. I refuse to put in sod if there is not an irrigation system on site, plain and simple.