[Hamons]

Glad to see you here GroundKprs,

I agree that too much N for the Spring is detrimental to the health of your turf -- in fact I just wrote an article for our local gardening magazine on this exact same thing.

However, you have to look at when the Nitrogen put down will be released

With 1#N put down in Mid march of the 21-0-21 -- less than 1/2 will have released by Mid May and the other 1/2 or so will release gradually after that, while the K will be avaialble immediately.

I had just checked my Local Lesco's inventory -- this is a good way for me to see what products the mass's are using. I found that they have 601 bags of 19-0-6. The 19-06 will release almsot entirely in two weeks -- BEFORE APRIL.

So.... I think using a slow release fertilizer at .5#N rate is still a good idea.

Convince me otherwise.

[GLAN]

Jim

We are told the same thing by the Cooperative as well and all recomendations you can find on the subject.....What it comes down to is....Customer Expectation.

Interesting thing today is. I just received a packet in the mail from a large retail nursery near me and SCOTTS....Promotion of their 4 step program and Miracle Grow products.......Guess what? Step 1 is to be applied February - April. Fert and Crabgrass Preventer

[GroundKprs]

Hamons, the point is that zero N is preferable. Amost all my clients are full maintenance, and I do not want the extra shoot growth in the first month of the season.

Most properties get a pre-em app. May just be $2 worth of pre-em in 3 minutes, because I only apply that in susceptable areas. Itemized cost of all apps on a property are totaled for the year and divided by # of apps to deteremine price for each app. So I do have a billing for the early spring, and that is my highest profit round, just looking at time and material cost.

So the client knows you made an app, and the lawn looks good. Added benefit is you're getting a healthier plant. Got any good friendly clients? Tell them you are experimenting with a new idea. Do half their back yard with N, and don't apply to the rest. Then monitor the appearance over the next 4-6 weeks. Of course, this depends highly on proper feeding last fall.

[RIC]

Unlike Cool season turf, Warm season turf does go domain in the winter if it gets cold enough. Something that doesn't normally happen in S.W. Florida. High Applys of N in the Fall, Exacerbate Brown Patch some times called winter fungus.

Warm season turf in my areas is treated with N in the spring for a quick green up. However I use Ammonium Sulfate instead of Urea for a darker green. The added sulfur helps acidify our Calcareous Sand and Turf does require Sulfur for Photosynthesis. True Ammonium Nitrate may be up taken quicker and a little more cost effective. However I have found Ammonium Sulfate gives a better darker green. This may not work on your soil because of an already low pH. If Low pH is a problem the Ammonium Nitrate may be better choice. You might want to also remember that Urea requires microbes to make it available to the plant. Therefore be care on late fall applys as the low ground temp will reduce there effect.

BTW My rainy season is June July and August. My dry season is Apirl, May and Oct. I believe this is just opposite of more of the Northern Readers.

[cutntrim]

I like the sounds of your method Jim, since I too have to cut & trim the properties that I fertilize. Reducing topgrowth on lawns that are already green and growing fast in the spring is attractive to me. I pay enough labor in the spring for maintenance as it is. With all the rain we usually get, it can be difficult just staying on schedule.

So, are you putting down zero N then? Your pre-M, is that granular or liquid? What's the carrier if it's granular? This organic program I'm putting together would avoid any use of my usual Dimension, Tri-Kil, and Merit. So...without putting down any nitrogen app for early spring, I'm somewhat concerned about my customers balking at having no service call until weeks after their neighbours have already been fertilized. Perception is reality for many folks who aren't as schooled in the science of turfgrass as some on board here are. If they perceive they aren't getting bang for their buck, well...

[GroundKprs]

Well, cutntrim, if the customer needs to see a app, you can always do an app of sand. Say you were doing that plus 4 fert apps at $50 each. Then you have 0+50+50+50+50=200. 5 apps divided by 5 = $40 each. Don't mean to be smartass, really, just trying to propose a solution for clients who need to see your presence. I am selling overall turf quality, not a number of visits. A new lawn might take 20 actual visits a year, most of them to learn the response of the particular lawn to my input and environmental conditions. I started working with a friend, and since I split with him and took the clients I managed, I have only solicited one account in 24 years. All of my business is referral from existing accounts. At one time I did $40K a year in direct and indirect referrals from one 2000 ft² property.

In a private conversation with a certain southern curmudgeon about this thread, I remembered some of the research results on spring N:

C3 turf actually can direct its growth depending on the available nutrients. If N is low in root zone, plant will strive to grow roots to access more nutrient. If plenty of nutrient is available, hormones direct plant to topgrowth and reproduction. Now since there is great root growth in late winter to early spring, that early spring shot of N will basically stop the root growth and direct plant into topgrowth. And this at a time that you want better rooting to survive summer stress.

[GroundKprs]

Sorry, cutntrim, forgot the last part. I have done granular pre-em in the past, mainly old standby Team. But I'm trying to get away from the heavy root pruning of the older chemicals. Am starting this year to use liquid Dimension apps.

But I do have a 23K lawn in full sun that has not has a flake or drop of pre-em for 6 years. Rooting is fabulous in this lawn, and it is a new development on farmland rated as marginal for plant growth in our county soil survey. Here's a pic of that turf:

That is sand, held together by grass roots, and I can only get a 5" to 5½" plug because of all the gravel in soil. The dark top 2" was same color as rest 6 years ago, but growing and dying roots have built up organic matter to make that soil black now.

Remember, no pre-em, 23K all in full sun. And last year I had about a dozen crabgrass plants in it. Why? Because your best weed control is a healthy turf stand. But I don't know if I would like to try no pre-em on 23K in the south, LOL.

[GLAN]

Nitrogen is good for both root and leaf growth.....Low N slow release will be more beneficial for roots than a High N even if slow release. The thing with cool season turf is that spring and fall are the optimum growth seasons.....Cool with adequate precipitation. One thing we have long forgotten is that cool seasons turf is to have 2 dormant periods. Winter and Summer.

We know that with cool season grasses we are going to have alot of growth in the spring. This is a natural occurence. Whether the turf will be green, that is dependent on what fert was applied and when in the fall. There is one other factor that would determine the "green" factor of spring lawns, that would be cutting height. Many that work cool season turf cut the grass short in spring, then raise for summer. After the initial cleanup and first cut...start raising the cutting height. This provides longer turf blades that will benefit the turf plant with a larger area for photosynthesis. A vigorous plant that is green and thickening.

Anyway.......Nitrogen in spring. The way I handle our accounts is that we have to get a nice green turf relatively quick. I apply a reduced rate of fert in the end of April....Will only use a 50% slow release and will seek out ferts that below a 20% N. Prefer below 18% that is Poly Coated. Sulfer coating will break down to quick cause of abundent rain that is common in spring.

[RIC]

Originally posted by GroundKprs
.....certain southern curmudgeon ........ Because your best weed control is a healthy turf stand. But I don't know if I would like to try no pre-em on 23K in the south, LOL.

James

This "certain southern curmudgeon", Does not believe in Chemical Root Pruning either. spot treatments of Post emerge is all that is needed on Healthy C-4 turf. BTW c 4 in caps is C$

I apply a lot of Potash SOP and very little phosphate. Our Soil is high in Phosphate and in fact Rock Phosphate is mined just up the road from me as well as Dolomite. Our Calcareous Soil does have its problems Unavailable phosphate is only one of them. But lack of available Phosphate helps hold down weed germination. High pH locks many nutrients in the soil. Therefore acid forming fertilizer is a must for everything.







Ps. curmudgeon (a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man) Yes I had to look it up. I prefer the Cantankerous Old Guy if you must pick.

[Hamons]

Well, i think that I will end up using the 21-0-21 in the spring at a lower .5#N rate. On yards that I ma startign new this SPring that didn't get 2.5 pounds of Nitrogen last fall, I will boost there rate up as needed.

Witht he UF and nutralene, these yards will only see about .25 pounds of N releaseed until after May. Yards will be sprayed with Dimension, humic acid and seaweed extract mixture.

[cutntrim]

Met with my fert supplier yesterday to go over his organic fert options. Gonna go with four apps of 16-2-3 "Screemin' Green", plus a fall app of 7-2-12 "Big K", both are manufactured by Nutrients Plus out of VA Beach, VA.

Contractors around here reported good results (and good sales) by incorporating it last year. It was a good year overall though for turf here, with cool wet weather almost all summer...

We'll see how it goes...

[RIC]

Originally posted by Hamons
Well, i think that I will end up using the 21-0-21 in the spring at a lower .5#N rate. On yards that I ma startign new this SPring that didn't get 2.5 pounds of Nitrogen last fall, I will boost there rate up as needed.

Witht he UF and nutralene, these yards will only see about .25 pounds of N releaseed until after May. Yards will be sprayed with Dimension, humic acid and seaweed extract mixture.

Jeff

I like your 21-0-21 idea. I am a strong believer in potash and like it applied in at least a 1-0-1 ratio. Even if it doesn't show a visible response it sure helps drought and disease by increasing root growth.

In the Nursery I use Potassium Nitrate sprayable to supplement the plants and bring on a dark green and flowering. Po-nite is a 1-0-3 ratio and does a wonderful job sprayed light and frequency. I would not use it on a customers home, it is very corrosive.

[timturf]

jeff,

that 21-0-21 is a good choice, and I like to move up the spring application to ~ 4 weeks before mowing starts, so the quick release nitrogen is used for root production, not top growth. the remained of the slow release should be slow and steady, just like the spoon feeding of bentgrass greens in the summer!

[Hamons]

Already applied a large part of the 21-0-21. Have been very impressed witht he quick response of the yard to the spray this year. Since I am spraying Dimension in addition to spreading the granualr fertilizer I went ahead and added a a micros solution with iron, humic acid, and seaweed extract.

WOW! Got the green-up people look for from the blast of N -- without all the problems.

My yards are standing out on theour streets for sure.