[mow-n-man]

John asked, "Mow, I'm out of the loop with you guys but am I to understand you right, in that we should be suspicious of the quality of Caterpillar? Just wondering if you're able to give us the "inside scoop."

John, Cat isn't the same company as its reputation was built on. I had 15 years there before walking due to quality issues that the "new" management wanted. Pure and simple they wanted numbers down the line, not quality.

Now that was 1989 when I couldn't take it anymore.
The early 90's was NOT a good time for Cat stock!!!

Quality today?
I still know LOTS of guys who are associated with Cat.
But... they don't work there anymore!
Cat tore down about 60% of their production buildings here in Peoria.
All that's left are:
HH (track link production)
LL (frame assembly and weld shop)
KK (transmissions)
SS (assembly)

In Chillicothe (about 10 mile north) it is engines and engine assembly.
To the south is Mapleton and what little casting that is still done.

Most castings, including the famed engine blocks are now done in Mexico. Mapleton foundry pretty much runs skeleton crews. Probably about 90% stands idle collecting rust.

BillS... you like Cat's but what you DON'T know is that the HUGE majority of parts are no longer made by Cat. Peoria is made up of numerous job shops now that Cat farms out almost everything to.
And... to the lowest bidder!
From what I understand Cat handles final welding assembly (robotic) and final assembly of parts.
Most of those guys who helped build Cat's reputation are now working at the job shops. Cat quit promoting management from within decades ago and hired management personnel only if they had a sheepskin to go with their badge. They didn't know how to do they job they were writing you up for but they knew how to count production parts and that's all that mattered.

Quite frankly most of us who know the inside story are embarrassed to say that Cat is no more than an assembly shop anymore. Not much different that any of the other manufacturers including JD, Case, and the others.

You guys need to understand that the only thing that separates most manufacturers of green industry machines anymore is the "frame"!!!

Same engines, same wheel motors, spindles, wheels, blades, seats, controls, and on and on.
What makes them different is "how" they relate to the frame and that relates to your personal preferences in how you like a machine to "sit".

At Cat I ground tooling to +- 3 ten-thousandths.
One strand of hair is only 3 thousandths so I ground 10 times finer than one strand of hair. You didn't do that with a "machine", you did it from the back of your head and then check your head with a mic. No robot gets it that fine. Can't.
Quality tolerances went down to compensate for robotics. I watched it happen!

So... is Cat is great as it was?
No, I don't think so. There isn't anyone I know of that is "Proud" of what Cat sends out the door now.
But all things in life are relative. Every other manufacturer has done the same thing as Cat. So do you want me to compare Cat from back then or against their competitor today?

I'd take a late 60's early 70's machine over whatever they can shove out the door today. Hands down. Better machine.
Buy one new?
I'd buy whatever fit my "butt" better today. I wouldn't care what color it was. They are all an assembly shop now except for spec'd frames which controls their balance and feel.

Whew! Haven't "talked" that much in a while!!!!

Later guys.

[johnkeegan]

Thanks Mow. Insider knowledge is invaluable.

[Bill Schwab]

"BillS... you like Cat's but what you DON'T know is that the HUGE majority of parts are no longer made by Cat. Peoria is made up of numerous job shops now that Cat farms out almost everything to."

Stan:

I am very aware of the global garbage facing the world. I don't at all believe for a second global is better than all built within. But, consider this. My Caterpillar stock, bought in the 80's and 90's has split 6 times, danced from 25 a SHARE TO OVER 100, SPLIT TWICE AGAIN, then sits near 70 today.

Why if Caterpillar is not as good as it was in the 60's/70's do they remain on top of their game and are they standard of the industry?

Simple. Cat completely understands how thier industry works. If people who own them can't use them, they can't pay their bills nor buy any more equipment. Thus, SERVICE. No company in the indistry has ever placed the emphysis that Caterpillar does when the folks who endorse their equipment need them in the field. My average wait time is 1.4 hours on the 3 times I have ever needed them. In comparison, we waited 6 weeks for Komatsu to ship fromt eh land of the rising sun, parts that should have been over the counter items. In comparison, Bobcat tells a client of thiers who owns a rental yard and owns 300 pieces of their equipment, they can't get to them for 2 days. Kubota tells it's users, they have to wait a week.

I can compile a list of the inadequecies of other machine companies, and the pros of Caterpillar over others. The single number one reason we continue to support that product, regardless of how and why they are who they evolved to, is service.

Caterpillar simplt understands and realizes that if they can't back up what they sell, they won't be who they are, and they really come to bat for those who are smaller users. If I loose a tractors use, it would be the equivelant of a 100 machine operation loosing 1/4 of it's fleet on one given day, which is never going to happen.

There is not one or all manufacturers combined who can ever parralell how Cat uses it's field personel to make whatever they lost from the 60's shine.

Regardless of price, regardless of color, when you do the math, no piece of equipment holds it's value longer, or produces dollar for dollar as much as a Cat.

Look for a second what the old Clip forum had to do to help Rick get his JD equipment woes rectified. In a Caterpillar shop, it never would have gotten that far.

No one should expect service in an hour as we get. But then no one should have to wait 2 days for a mechanic to get to a downed machine either. If they do, the manufacturer should write a check to that owner for the lost billable time in the field.

That's about all I have to add to this mix. The numbers don't lie.

[mow-n-man]

Bill, yous knows I like ya.

But numbers do lie. Time and time again.

You can't compare your 1.4 hour wait to another machine manufacturer. The company didn't take care of you... your DEALER did. There is NO WAY Caterpillar shipped you product from their production facility in 1.4 hours.

The numbers are there... the comparison is faulty.

You assume that company stock value is comparable to product value. If so then all those "venture" stocks that are bloated beyond realism means that their products are all top-notch!
If you believe that I have some venture stock tips for ya.
Faulty values there.

Fact... Cat stock has done well due to Cats total annihilation of the unions here. Unprecedented profits while plucking the unions clean here.
In the early 80's blue collar stood at around 20,000 employees.
Today... less than 8000.
Stock value? Soared.
Local economy? Bill did you not read that I said that Peoria has become nothing more than another out-source city for Cat? There are DOZENS of out source company's producing the products that were once produced inside the gates of Cat. And here's a real scream for ya... most of the machines in those companies are the SAME machines that were at Cat. Cat GAVE them to the out-source companies to run product!
The guys working in them are working there for 60% LESS than they were making when they did the same job at Cat!!!!
Now you are implying they are still producing the same quality?
You don't know the guys... I do!!!
Answer... no way!!!
But Cat isn't requiring them to produce it either.

Bill, have you ever thought that that maybe Cat doesn't sell for more because it is better, but sells for more to sustain their service departments?
Cats service is superb. Hands down none better since they learned the ways of "time on delivery" from those smart guys in "the land of the rising sun". Fact.
Five miles from here is a city called Morton. That's where Cats parts division is. In the late 70's they were building a HUGE parts distribution building to replace what they had. All that ever got built was the steel girders. Painted white. It was universally referred to as the "white elephant". It sat there for 15 years before Cat cut the girders down and re-cycled the steel. Sold the land and still use the original buildings for its Parts Division.

The difference? Cat learned that time on delivery works, just like it does across the sea. If you don't know what it means it is this. DON'T stock parts. Increase your distributions lines to be as lean as they can be but fast. Steal parts off the assembly line if it's not in stock, and a lot of times they aren't, but no matter what... you ship parts first, assembled tractors second. LOTS of partially assembled tractors sitting behind SS at any given time!

Great idea... too bad it wasn't Cats idea.

Bill, re-read your reply. Fact is that you are talking about your DEALERS service capabilities, not Cats quality.
Big difference. Important! But different.
You said, "no one should have to wait 2 days for a mechanic to get to a downed machine" and then used this to justify, "If they do, the manufacturer should write a check".
Sorry bud. If the "mechanic" takes two days to get to the problem then let the DEALER write the check. Not the "manufacturer".

The initial question was on their quality. Answer I gave still stands.

Damn nice chattin' with yous again bud. Feels like old days, huh?

[Bill Schwab]

Stan:

You know I like you as well...however, saying that Cat quality is not there, saying that the workers are not proud oif what they build, then saying Cat's anilalation of the unions, is EXACTLY why the workers aren't proud of what they build.

The unions had to be broken because they were broken beyond repair. When a UAW worker uses benefiits like health care as an entitlement, not a benefit, and when it's time to lay off, and the oldest people (most seniority) at the plant get first pick of being laid off, because they get to collect 95% pay for up to a year during the lay off, what incentive is there for the manufacturer to lay anyone off?

Dealers are separate tntities form Cat, and they are controlled by Cat. They have to perform the way they do, and the dealers charge what is appropriate in order that they profit. Cat does not subsidize them for providing service.

My comparison to other brands is based on what freinds I have were told by their dealer/ i.e. manufacturer. So, yeah numbers don't lie. If their dealer can't get to them when they need service and mine comes in an hour, and my machine is running and billing for the time it runs, and their machine is down in the field, they still get to pay wages, they still get to make payments on the machine, and, they still have the bid they submitted as written assuming they had a machine that could do the job and can't. I pay more for a machine, and by having a fleet of tractors that are worth more, I can bond for more money at a lessor rate, I bill the hours I budgeted and after you subtract projected down time from what the other machine lost me, I am thousands of dollars ahead even after paying more money from the gate.

Anyhow, time to do the QB thing for the night.

[mow-n-man]

"When a UAW worker uses benefits like health care as an entitlement, not a benefit, and when it's time to lay off, and the oldest people (most seniority) at the plant get first pick of being laid off, because they get to collect 95% pay for up to a year during the lay off, what incentive is there for the manufacturer to lay anyone off?"

Poor Bill. Who have you been listening to?
I lived it dude.
95%???!!!!
You've got to be kidding me that you actually believe that crap!!

You took lay-off to keep the younger guys with family still working cause we could get by on less!
We came back when we had to... which was when the standard state unemployment ran out after 6 months or our savings account went bust!

Pay?
The same unemployment anyone else got during that period which was CRAP compared to what our standard paycheck was.
Sorry bud but you sure have bit into somebodies BS to buy all that.

But this leads us into another thread I think.
"Laid off waiting for equip repair"

Later my friend.