[tractornewbie]

Hi guys and gals, nice site!

I'm planning to fill and level my backyard, which has a pretty large gulley that stretches over mine and my neighbors yards. We're going to fill the entire hole so both our yards will be level.

I'm planning on buying a skid-steer to do the job, and also to have for any future uses. I've been looking at Bobcats because they have so many attachments. I figure when I need an attachment I'd rent one.

Also, I'd like to do other jobs with the equipment and maybe pick-up a few bucks here and there helping out local yard owners.

I have a few questions:

1.) Do all skid-steers accept Bobcat attachments? Is it advantageous to go with a Bobcat for the attachments alone? Or is that a moot point because they all can use the same ones.

2.) Which is a good piece of equipment for yard work on the medium duty end?

I also would like to use to to dig post holes/install fencing, dig up my driveway and prep it for resurfaceing, etc.

How about the RC30? I've been reading about that and it sounds like a good yard skid-steer because it can get into very small places and never gets stuck?

How about a regular skid-steer on a semi-hilly surface? Wet surface?

Any suggestions?

I'd also like to have it be a flexible as possible in order to get the most use out of it, which probably gets back to available attachments.

If it doesn't work out i.e., I don't get much use out of it after I do my own work I'll just sell it.

I plan on spending anywhere from 5 to 20k.

Thanks alot in advance for any help! I appreciate it.

DT.

[Bill Schwab]

tractornewbie:

Welcome aboard....First, in the price range you list, about the only thing you are going to get in to is a Bobcat 463, or some used machine. Said that, we had an RC-30, absolutley awesome little machine, but one flaw. It is 46" wide. Many of the spaces a small machine needs to get into in our area are under 40", so, we got a Bobcat 463, which can be narrowed to a 36" machine, even narrower than the stand on mini machines, and it can load a dump truck off the ground. Without a question, the track drive of the RC will be more stable than a wheel machine, and the Caterpillar power and controls are second to none. The flaw of the 463 are the antiquated footpedals and yank sticks to control it. Not a very comforatable machine to use but it has it's purpose.

In this day and age, any machine I know of from any manufacturer has standardized hydraulic lines, and work tool mount. So, yes, you can interchange tools. Bobcat makes alot of tools, so does Caterpillar. And there are numerous aftermarket manufacturers, such as Bradco, who make 6 in one blades for skidsteer/compact track loaders.

In my opinion, there is no medium use for a small loader. Even if it is some old bone you sit in your yard used to load piles into trucks, you still are working it hard. From experience, I'll tell you this. But a new system, work it into your maintenance programs, take the classes the manufacturer should offer on how to use it best, and run with it.

We have 2 different loader types, Bobcat, and Caterpillar, and if I had a choice in the matter, everything we own would be Caterpillar. They hold resale better than anything in their class, and their service is second to none. There is nothing wrong at all with Bobcat products, I just do not like the way they control.

And they make a machine that will get into a 36" wide hole. So, your loader size should be determined by what you have to pull from job to job, and the width of access of the work you do most of the time...

Though buying used will fit a budget at the time, lost time production will eat more of your profit, which is why I would recommend buying new and flipping your fleet every 3-5 years. At least my two cents worth

[tractornewbie]

Thanks for the response Bill.

I've been looking at RC30's on the web and there are some new/very low hour 2004's out there for a little over 20k. I could go a little over 20k.

Good resale is a big consideration too so I'd want something that has good demand on the used market.

Does one negotiate with dealers for this kind of equipment? Like buying a car?

Or are these dealer prices pretty hard and fast...

Also, if the minimum width for you was 46", what would you buy? A conventional skid-steer or an RC30?

Is the 46" width really that restrictive on most residential jobs? I like the track idea for stability. Also, it seems to me that hilly areas would be difficult for a narrow 36" conventional skid-steer. Could get tipsy...

No?

For my home it's (46") too wide to get thru the rear chain-link gate but I'm planning on widening the gate anyway. The 36" 463 would barely, and I mean just barely make it thru. No doubt even with the 463 I'd put a few dents in the house in the process.

I would also like to dig up my driveway and prep it for resurfacing so whatever I buy would have to have that capability.

The more I look around the more I find uses for it.

Winter too, maybe some plowing.

BTW, what does a brandy new Bobcat 463 cost these days vs. a new RC30?

Thanks again Bill,

David T.

[Bill Schwab]

David:

It depends on your working market. In the land of Californ ia ridiculously over priced grossly over rated tract style homes, if you have 60" you have a wide lot. So, the 463 being able to narrow to the 36" is one of my weapons opf choice. The others are a Cat 301.8 excavator and an Ingersol Rand 36" wide power wheel barrow. One man can dig a 1000 sf patio space in an 8 hour day, wheeling the dirt all the way out and into a dump box, as opposed to 4 men using army edition backhoes and dumptrucks taking two days...(spade ended shovels and wheel barrows)

In a larger spaced market, the 257's work just fine. So, in your area, how big are the areas you have to operate? And, are tracks over tires and all the associated maintenance going to be an advantage for you? Those are questions you need to answer because I don't have any idea how or where you work.

A new Bobcat 463 runs 23,000 with two buckets and the 36" tire kit. A new RC-30 is sitting just over 30K. The Bobcat has 22 HP, the RC has 31. Both are deisel. Another narrow choice would be the New Holland LX-125, also available with 36" kits. If you can go wider, some of the stand ons migt work for you, and they have a pretty hot market right now. But, for productivity, the RC-30 will out work any of the above listed. How hard are you going to push the enevelope?

Any of these machines are a bit small for driveways, but would work if all you were doing is yours, you just need patience and remember that size matters. Small machine, smaller bites at what you are doing. Big machine, man size ground shaking bites. Job done faster.

Some dealers will work with you better than others, but frankly, I don't care within reason how much I pay for a machine. What matters to me is how fast and how well they service it after the sale is closed. For me, time and down time of machinery mean lost billable hours. Anyone can whore out the market and rock bottom the prices, and, when you call that dealer back after your machine is down, those who give away the store are usually the ones who take a week to get out and repair your machine, or get your parts.

If you are going to buy an ASV or Cat track drive product, I strongly advise you to take the MTL training class so you can avoid issues that occur when tracks drives are not cared for properly.

[tractornewbie]

Sounds like great advice Bill. Most homes in my area have more than 46" clearance all around them so the RC30 would do nicely but I'm not sure if I'm ready to fork over 30+k.

We'll see.

Thanks again and have yourself a great holiday!

David T.

P.S. I lived out in Simi Valley for a while back in the early 1990's. Took about three months for me to re-acclimate to all the clouds after I moved back east.

You guys have some great year-round weather out there.

[Bill Schwab]

That was my attraction. And actually, we got thr June Gloom thing that just ended. But the year round weather in our trade is where it is at.

So, if your house spaces are larger than 46", and you can turn a larger machine, why not get into something in the 65-69" wide class from either Bobcat or Cat if those are your two preferred choices?

I know cost was a factor, but consider that if you can run a larger machine it will do more and make you more money.

[tractornewbie]

I was thinking the same thing after I read your post about the 257B.

I looked up the 247B on CAT's website and found that with some options a new one can be had for ~41k, not much more than the RC30.

Was that 30+k RC30 price you mentioned for a base model with no options? Or was it somewhat optioned?

If not there's really not much of a price difference between the two.

What interested me was that GPS satellite leveling option, but I couldn't find it in the options list when I built and priced it on the CAT website.

Is that standard or an option? How much does it cost?

Do you know if it's available on the RC30 tool?

That sounds like great thing to have for grade leveling, especially for a newbie like me.

If I had that 247B doing things like my driveway would be easier than the RC30, but it probably wouldn't be as easy on existing lawns as the RC30.

David T.

[tractornewbie]

This link seems to sum them all up pretty good:

http://www.compactequip.com/pdfs/ce_...ing-tracks.pdf

[Pelican]

If you've got the space, I'd recommend you go as big as your wallet will allow.The job will get done faster and be easier on both you and the machine.. I've got a 248 Cat, the high flow version of the 246. I'm amazed at the amount of work this machine can do. I'm also partial to the Cat controls, they're so smooth and precise.

I'd question the purchase of a tracked machine though for casual use. I haven't used one yet, so my comments are based on what I've read here at GTX. The initial cost is much higher than a wheeled skid steer and track replacement is a much higher cost than tires. I don't know how the tracks wear, but I got 1000 hours out of my original tires running about 50/50 on/off pavement.

As Bill mentioned, nearly all manufacturers have standardized the hookups for skid steer attachments. What you'll want to do is get a spare set of hydraulic couplers to have on hand in the event of renting and attachment with a different coupler. Case has a slightly different connector than Cat does.

While any NEW attachment should interchange with any machine, different skid steer manufacturers use different hydraulic oils that are not compatible. Again I'll use Cat as an example, Bobcat uses a different hydraulic fluid than Cat so attachments that have been run on a Bobcat machine should not be run on a Cat. Also, be aware in renting that if the attachment you're using has been run on a machine with a bad hydraulic system, you run the risk of contaminating your machine by running that attachment. A little like STDs in humans.

[Stone Art, Inc.]

We have two skid-steers, affectionately called the Kitten and the CAT. We use the 236 for smaller jobs and the 262-B for heavier lifting. The only issues we've had is that the 'universal' jackhammer attachments don't fit either machine.

One of the many reasons we chose Caterpillar was service. Bobcat came in much cheaper, as did John Deere.

Last year one of my knuckleheads jacknifed down I-35 at 4:55pm, I called my dealer who was right down the road, they picked up the Kitten from the wreckage and had it fixed by 8am the next day. Service is everything!

[tractornewbie]

Did you guys buy new or used?

How much did you spend, if you don't mind me asking?

If used, how many hours were on the equipment? Year?

I'm trying to get an idea.

Thanks alot,

David

[Bill Schwab]

I would be a little weary of a GPS leveling system. Paul has infinite wisdom here, and the reason we are running a lazer with grade poles on the blade is because in certain situations, (canyons deep filled with Coast Live Oaks, or Eucalyptus trees and on mountain sides) the sending unit will not register or interface well with the servos on the machine and it will throw your elevations way out in left field.

Best using old reliable. I know a guy who still digs post holes next to grade stakes and when he hits the bottom, he is there.

And, if you are squeeking now about machine costs and investment, you can't get into a satelite grading system for less than 15K. That is not with a machine to run it on....

As far as tracks vs tires, if you can run tires, do so. We travrse alot of 2-1, 3-1 slopes carrying loads, and tires would not work well in our applications. The 463 is typically used on flat limited access areas.

[Paul]

Auto laser leveling is still going to run way over $15K. A good grade laser is still $6500, add in machine controls and a blade and your at $23K.

Now if you want GPS hold on to your hat please. the last system I looked at ran just under $50K, Thats receiver's, software and machine controls. It's not that easy to program you must find a marker that gives you exact height and location set a transmitter at that point then mark your known grade and input into the system. then go back to the office and transfer those grades to your site plan then input the grades you want to end up with. Then load the on-board computer and you can start working.

On a road job it works because a surveyor has already found the grades and a engineer has set the finish grade so all you have to do is load the program into the on-board computer and go.

[tractornewbie]

Hey Pelican,

Thanks for the tip about fluid contamination.

Makes perfect sense.

DT.

[Dirt Dogs]

Hey guys, new to the forum. Newbie you need to ask yourself what it is that you want to do with this machine. If you want to take care of your own property and every friend, family member or person that you ever talked to at the bank ( trust me they will all want you to" just move a little dirt....won't take long! " then buy a used machine and be happy. If you are serious about doing this as a money making side job or full time job then do the math and a business plan and be realistic. Every job you do for the first month or so will take twice as long and be twice as hard as you had originally planed. This is called a learning curve, learn from it. Try renting a few different machines and see which machine works for what you want to do.

After 5 years of playing around on rental units I was looking to purchase my first skid steer and make a serious run at it. I thought I would save some money and buy from EBAY or the equipment trader. When you start a new business new clients don't care if your machine is down for repairs, they want the job done NOW!!! It's your name on the business not someone else. You don't really know how the machince was treated by the prior owner. I purchased a new CAT 257 high flow track machine(66 inches wide). With this machine I can do almost any job out there. I love this machine, but it is expensive. I paid $48,000 with a 4 in 1 bucket. My payments are $1300 per month for 9 months out of the year at 4.08%.

Buy what you can afford per month if you are going to treat it as a real business. If not find a solid used machine from a dealer ( Cat, Bobcat ect..) equip it with a 4 in 1 bucket and enjoy.