[tdlandscape]

I feel like I saw this thread already, but can't seem to find it now, please advise.

How do you hire/pay a designer per job? I may want/need to do this soon for a new construction that is a little over my head.

I know I can give the client what they want, but need a LA because of loose dirt/ grading issues. I will sub out any excavating to qualified person if needed.

Also, should LA meet with client, or can I walk the site with him and go over what they told me they wanted?

Thanks,
Smitty

[Fine Edge]

well, to hire one, you just need to make the call and make sure they will share your same vision.
To pay a designer, I think that would be in their hands since it's their service that your "buying".

[Gensparkie]

It's really hard to answer such a broad question. I'd talk to the LA and ask them the questions you are asking us. The scope of work really would determine most of it, and personal preference and policy the rest.

[Chris Heiler]

Hi Smitty,

As an independent designer, I've done this type of work for contractors before. I did it when I was first starting my business because I needed the work. Now I don't do it anymore, but do know a few other designers that work for numerous landscape contractors.

Here is what I have done-

1. The landscape contractor hired me directly to design the project for him and ONLY the contractor had contact with the client. I think this is a terrible way to do it and drove me absolutely crazy. First of all, I could not develop an appropriate design without DIRECT input from the client. All I had to work with was second hand information passed along by the contractor. Secondly, because the contractor was hiring me, he felt like he was entitled to some kind of discount on my design fees. And of course he wasn't charging his client for the design work so he always whined about my fee.

2. A couple of other times I've had the landscape contractor just refer me to the homeowner with the understanding that the contractor will construct the project. I've had mixed success with this approach. I have the design contract directly with the homeowner which is ideal, but I have no shot at overseeing the construction (where I make GC fees). And of course the contractor has free reign to change my design when he starts installing it. One drawback for the contractor doing it this way is that you are leaving it up to the designer to "Sell" the client on a design contract. What if the homeowner doesn't want to pay my fee? Then the landscape contractor is screwed.

Between the two points above, I think I've had ONE project that actually worked out well for me (meaning I was proud of it and was compensated appropriately). Thus I don't do it anymore.

I hope my perspective helps your situation.

[Chris Heiler]

Sorry Smitty, I went on a little rant and didn't answer your questions directly.

Here's my response-

Pay the designer his normal fee, charge the fee to your client, and absolutely have the designer or landscape architect be involved in ALL conversations.

[tdlandscape]

Thank you all,-especially you, Chris. I will take your advice and include the LA in the conversations.

[jshilan]

I provide landscape design services for many different contractors and I let them decide how they want the relationship to be structured. Sometimes I will meet the customer with them, sometimes without them or sometimes without the customer. It really doesn't matter to me. If someone has definitive ideas or no ideas at all, I can put a plan together.

My design fees are based on property size only (see previous posts by me) so that my contractors can quote a design fee price to a customer and get a commitment before they bring me to the site. It works well and limits wasted time.

Find someone you are comfortable with and will allow for input from you or your client. After all it's your clients home and you are going to be building it.

[tdlandscape]

Thanks. I have a meeting set up between the LA, client, and myself tomorrow. It makes sense in my head to do it that way so we are all in on the conversation. Seems it will keep confusion to a minimum for me, and every little bit helps!~

[agla]

There are so many different ways that this can go just based on the three parties involved. The biggest thing is whether the designer is working for you or the property owner. There is a huge difference. The designer better act like he is working for the party who hired him and the party who did not hire him needs to understand that he is working for the party who did hire him.

One thing that often happens is that the contractor will bring in a designer just like TD is doing. Then they have the designer contract with the client instead of through the contractor. Well, guess what? The designer is obligated to work in the best interest of his client whether or not that is in your best interest. The client will often start to speculate about whether to price shop or bring in a different contractor and will look for the designer to assist in that. The contractor is expecting that the designer will be looking out for the contractor since the contractor brought him in. A smart designer will do that as best as he can, but they can't do that at the detriment of the party they have the contract with. You have to have a great deal of trust that this person is not going to take the project in a direction that you do not want to go or start spec'ing things that are really difficult to get. They are working closely with the client and the client bonds with them. Sometimes it makes it look like you are the bad guy if you don't embrace everything the designer is telling the client.

Another thing that can happen is that the contractor hires the designer directly, but the designer is oblivious to the fact that he is working for the contractor. This can be because they are not used to the idea that they are not always working for the property owner or because they are a bit egotistical. It can't be tolerated for any reason if they are working for you. You really have to make that point prior to signing a contract with the designer to make sure that they understand it and can handle it.

Then there is the whole thing about where the designer usually gets his money from. If it is through project management it is clearly a conflict with what you are trying to do and where you are trying to get your money from. You own the job and want to bring in a designer as a sub which makes you the project manager. Clearly there is only one money source, so you can't both tap it at once and you don't want to lose control over your job. The PM designer is going to have a hard time acting as a sub most of the time.

There are tons of people who want to be landscape designers. A majority of them are not professionally trained and tend to be garden designers rather than landscape designers. It is difficult to know if they know enough about the big picture of landscape design and if they know how to build your clients confidence and stear the job in the direction you need it to go.

Those are some of the negatives you have to watch out for. But, there are people out there who know which side of the bread the butter is on and can switch gears. You just have to know who they are so you can trust them.

I have a full time job besides my own landscape architecture. I simply don't have enough time to project manage, so I can't do it even if I wanted to. I am sometimes brought into a job by property owners and sometimes by contractors. Sometimes the contractor has me contract with them and sometimes they have me contract with the client.

The latter is the hardest because the clients often start looking for me to buy the plants to or something else to avoid the contractors mark up or they start asking if I know someone that could do better work or work for less. I tactfully let them know that I won't get in between them and the contractor and my contract is very clear on what I am doing for them which does not indicate that I will do that.

You could get together with the designer and discuss what to put into the contract if you choose to have them get directly paid by the owner.

In any case, I really think you need to get together with the designer before hand and talk about expectations on the business side of things. Remind them that you may be a long term source for steady work.

Never undeestimate the power that goes with being the first person contacted by a property owner. Leads are the most difficult part of a designers business. Without a source for work, they are screwed. When they are the source of the work it empowers them to be project managers. Without it, they have no claim to that position and need to work as a sub and be paid as one.

[papercutter]

agla makes a great point, as usual. My experience with the problems he describes are precisely why I've designed my business model to always put the contractor front and center with the homeowner, with me as a supporting player- supporting the contractor, not the homeowner. If a contractor brings me in and has me sign a contract with the homeowner, it can be kind of awkward. On the one hand, I feel an obligation to sell the contractor to the homeowner if they start getting doubts; but on the other hand, it's the homeowner paying me to be a consultant. If you're not the best at what you do, don't put a designer in that situation. I just finished one where I was brought in to do the planting plan for a contractor-designed hardscape project. The hardscape was an abomination, and the homeowner asked "is [contractor] really the best choice to do these plantings?" Uhhhh...

I think the interactions between the client-contractor-designer troika are dictated by what type of homeowner you have and how well the contractor knows them. I have lots of projects I've designed where I've never met the homeowner, just taken feedback from the contractor and run with it. It works because I make sure I have all the info I need before I start work.

[Pelican]

I have a very similar problem as posted here. I've been approached by a potential client in one of the most upscale neighborhoods in my area. The scope of this job is beyond my abilities, I have no formal training in this area. I've been looking around to contract a landscape architect, but have come up against a pretty hard time finding one. Some of the larger landscape contractors have one employed in house, but I can't keep one employed with me. I've tried calling the architect firms in my area, but they are only interested in commercial work.

I don't want to approach any of my competitors to hire them for design work in fear of them competing for the work, construction work is very scarce to be found in my area right now. I'd really like to do this job, I know I can build to a plan, but I don't have the imagination to give the customer the best design to complement his home. The work involves hardscaping, a deck and landscaping, perhaps lighting as well.

Can a design be made without a field visit? Would some of you design only guys be able to do a design with a series of pictures and measurements? I have made contact with a landscape architect student that graduates at the end of the month who might be interested in working with me. Any suggestions?

[agla]

Pelican,

That is a real tough position to be in. When you have such an opportunity, it seems really good and really feasible with just a little help.

What is harder to see is that if you were the prospective client, you really would rather have someone who is completely able to do the project. I don't have a problem with guys getting ahead with a little help. That is how we all have moved up the ladder at various points in time and it is good way to do it.

The thing that you can't let happen is for the prospect to have doubts raised in your ability to do the project. Your designer can help you or hurt you here depending on his agenda and how well (s)he works with you. You should have someone who you are comfortable communicating with and will be careful to look out for your best interests. I recommend that you hire him rather than having him work directly for the client so that he is not obligated to take the project in directions that are not in your best interest if the client asks him to.