[sandim]

Ok, so not to drag this topic to death, but I have yet another question regarding design fees.

Last spring I spent way too much time on a design for a guy that ended up blowing me off in the end. Learning the hard way I said "no more". Clients want an estimate, I can only do that with a design and I'm not working for free. I also figured that would tell me if they were serious or not about truly having the work done. We've seen a lot of prospects this spring that I have tried very hard to qualify over the phone. I find out what they're looking to have done, explain to them our process, tell them if we think we can help them we'll come out and discuss some basic ideas with them and then if they like what they hear we charge a $600 design fee and will take 1/2 of that off the final invoice as an incentive. People say "ok". I explain to them that we'll work with them so they know exactly what they're getting before it's installed because we work with them and make tweaks as necessary. We go out, we talk, they like what they hear. When it comes to a check...they balk.

I have 2 hands. On the one hand I say I don't want to lose prospective clients because the design fee makes them nervous. On the other hand, I don't want to work for free. On the third hand which I forgot to mention, I'm not sure who to slap harder, people for their stupidity or me for mine.

Any takers on my stupidity???


Sandi

[Chris Heiler]

Sandi,

Is your $600 design fee with $300 credit your standard offer to prospects?

This is just my opinion, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to offer a "standard" fee. Your prospect will think they are a "Standard" client and that you are just trying to qualify them or are just trying to "make a little extra" off of them.

As far as offering a credit, I don't suggest offering a credit of any kind- half or full. You might as well just give the design away for free because the client still isn't going to VALUE your design work if you give them their money back.

I really think you would do much better determining your fee on a job to job basis and NOT offering a credit. I think you would close a higher percentage of jobs.

I'm sure others would disagree, but like I said, just my opinion.

[spiderlily]

We are a design/build company, but make our money from the build part. We charge a design fee that is large enough so that I am not working for free, but not so large as to make people balk. I think I would hear a lot more no if my "standard fee" was $600. As it is, my hourly rate for design is lower than our labor rate (not that I give an hourly rate for design-I don't) and is based on how long it will take me to do the bare minimum to sell the job. But I sell every job. We don't do design only, so the design is just a selling tool. Where do you make your money? If it is in build, them maybe you need to lower your design fee.

[kinnanscaping]

For whatever reason, what Spiderlily just wrote made perfect sense to me. I posted about a guy that balked at my design fee proposal a week or so ago. Agla was trying to say the same thing, only in a lot more words (that's why we all listen to him, though). Why would I even tell them that there is a design fee involved? I am build company. I am selling the finished product. I will use a design so we are all in agreement with the depth and scope of the job, but I will still add whatever touches I see fit during the build process.

I have set up an agreement with freelance designer within the last couple of days. We are not going to put together anything too fancy, he will get a set rate from me, I will sell the job, and then I work the price of the design in somewhere. I don't give an itemized bid, so the customer ultimately pays for a design, but no worries (I know, this has been a big topic of discussion on this site).

[jshilan]

I have sold a lot of work with design fees and a lot without fees. With that being said the better value for the contractor and the customer is to charge design fees.

Nobody wants to lose potential install work because of a minimal design fee. However the value of the design process, the relationship and trust that it creates with the client and the upselling potential inherent to a well designed plan is totally misunderstood and completely undervalued.

The amount of install work that you will sell to the clients that understand the value of a well designed plan, and are willing to pay for it, will clearly outweigh the "potential" work that is lost because a client doesn't want to pay for a design.

Your job is to educate the customer, in one hour or less, as to why a plan is so vital to the proper execution of the project and why you will not and can not do a proper installation without it.

I provide design services for many design build contractors and what we have all found is that the clients that pay the design fees, typically go with the original contractor, and their budget grows anywhere form 25% -100% above what they orignally stated was "the most they could spend".

I have attached a copy of my design contract for anyone to use (just delete my info please). It has worked very well for me and the contractors that I work with. The fees are based solely on the size of the property. What I have found is that it is not the complexity of the site or the project, but really just how big the property is. I have also been doing this forever so this concept may not work as well if you are new to the design field. The other benefit is that I, or the contractors that I work with, can quote a design fee price over the phone or email/fax the contract to a client to review. I also send a sample rendered plan (see my previous posts) so that the clients have an idea of what to expect and start to understand that this isn't a napkin drawing or sketch on a sheet of loose leaf paper.


If they are comfortable with the process, we meet and I get a deposit. If they are not into it, I have wasted very little time with them and move on to people who are my clients.

Like Chris H., I provide a layout plan to scale, with generic plant names and no construction details. The plan can be used for construction by an experienced contractor, but it is subject to interpretation.

I could go on and on about the topic but it is late.

[sandim]

Our money is with installations, not designs, but I need to do a design as a reference tool for myself and then I provide a quote after the design is approved. I feel I should be compensated for my time. The fee is based on the project size and scope. A little bitty thing I may not charge for at all, but something more complex....
I like what Jody said about providing them with a sample.

It's just frustrating to tell them all this over the phone (we also do a plan to scale) and go out and talk to them, they get all interested, but then when it comes time to write the check for the design they're like "um..uh" and that's as far as it goes. It's a huge waste of time that I'm trying to avoid.

I guess I just have to be firmer and after I educate them ask them if they are prepared to pay a design fee if they like our ideas. If not, then they wouldn't go for the install anyway. I guess some wasted time is better than hours and hours of wasted time. Still frustrating though.

[Chris Heiler]

"Nobody wants to lose potential install work because of a minimal design fee. However the value of the design process, the relationship and trust that it creates with the client and the upselling potential inherent to a well designed plan is totally misunderstood and completely undervalued."

Well said Jody. This statement is EXACTLY spot-on.

[agla]

Lots of good stuff.

I think that one thing that sometimes does not get said is that the more basic the project and/or the client is, the less the client will feel that it is necessary to pay for a design. For better or worse, they are right because you and I might not do a free design and we might not do an installation without a design, but the simpler the job, the more people there are who will. You can't blame them.

Sometimes simple jobs can be great. So make a method to deal with it. I just wrote a reply to a private message on this subject. I mentioned that a big design/build (actually landscape architects) that I worked for had 4 designer/sales people working the prospects. Some jobs did not require very involved plans, but we used quickie sketch plans to win them over to go with us for either design or just getting an estimate. If the job was small in area, we'd talk about it, measure it, sketch it to scale on graph paper using pencil and circle templates, then use pens of different thicknesses to jazz it up, throw some colored pencil on it, and show it to them, BUT NOT GIVE IT TO THEM TO COPY OR KEEP! That was usually enough to win them over. This took about 15-20 minutes. On bigger jobs where we felt we could not sell a plan, we'd do a small portion this way and see if we could get them on board.

Remember that there is only one reason a client pays for a plan. It is to take away uncertainty. He who does the best at that without breaking the bank owns the job. If you can do that without going overboard on drawing plans it works just as well ... if you can take away more uncertainty than the next guy.

[schleng]

I believe you should provide a design and also charge for it. Although I am a designer, I have also worked for design/build.

Here are some things that help people see the importance of a design and them being agreeable to one:

1. When they call, prior to meeting (if you decide to meet), send them to your website. The website should show sample drawings and great projects. If you don't have a website, get one.
   
2. Explain that the drawing is done to scale. Everything can be measured out for them to understand. It also becomes a working drawing.
   
3. All plants are designated on the drawing. In addition, supply them with a separate plant list.
   
4. Once they look at the drawing, if they want to make any changes or adjustments, you are agreeable to that.
   
5. Because of your expertise, you can address all areas of the landscape....list all the elements, such as drainage, lighting, etc. Expand on this.

Try to gauge the complexity of the project on the phone and give them a ball park figure for the design. Right then and there, this will do some weeding out.

This way, they feel they are getting value for what they are paying. If you feel this amount of detail is too time consuming for you, consider working with a designer, paying him/her, and fitting the cost into the installation price. If you don't get the job, you'll get another and it will all average out.

I had worked independently for a company years ago. I got paid 90% of the design fee. The owner and I worked with the client together. It was very professional and successful.

Susan

[Terre]

I started charging for design/estimates. I am the only person advertising on craigslist who does. There are dozens who offer free estimates. I don't give them part of it back if they install. To me, that dilutes the value. My time, my plant knowledge and my ability to design a pleasing layout are worth something. Diplomacy not being my strong suit, I'm pretty blunt with people over the phone. I tell them almost verbatum:

"I don't do free estimates. The cost of doing them, both in wasted gasoline and my time is prohibitive for a small company like myself to absorb, and I don't feel it's fair to pad paying customers bills to cover the 20 free estimate requests I get every week. If you want me to come out, I charge $xxx. for a design/estimate with x number of revisions to ensure we get it to where you want it to be."

Being that blunt has worked. I have yet to fail to get the check on the first visit.

That said, maybe you need to look at polishing your salesmanship and presentation skills.

I'm pretty careful on that first visit, during the "walk and talk" NOT to give away the store. I listen to their ideas, to carefully pick up on their weakest areas. That is usually the reason they called you in the first place. Everyone has an ego that thinks "if it wasn't for this, I could do this job myself" I used to get that all the time in automotive. Guys who couldn't find the dipstick would try to tell me they would rebuild the transmission themselves if they just had the time. Yeah, right.

I try to figure out what the "wasn't for this" insecurity of each customer is, and then pick on that. If I get the feeling it's a lack of time, I can emphasize how time consuming the job is without the right equipment or knowledge. If their weak spot is knowledge of plants that one's easy. With many people I find it is either a lack of an ability to 'see' how things will unify to make a whole, or a lack of confidence in their ability to put together the whole picture. One of my sneakiest on the phone qualifying questions, is "Have you drawn out on paper what it is you want to accomplish?" Most of the time they have tried, unsuccessfully, which is why they called me.

Yes, we're gardeners/landscapers but if we don't sell the jobs we aren't, so we have to be salesmen too.

[smithule]

We have found that if the clients expectations are set properly we rarely have problems. The only times we've ever had problems is when we have trusted the client to mail us a check. In one case the lady mailed the design plan back and said she didn't like it. In the other case after many calls we finally got a check for the wrong amount, obviously less than what was due.

Since we are a small design only at the moment we pretty much play it by ear. If we think it is going to be a problem client we require a down payment. We only charge hourly rates per client. It's nice to show them, that we worked 10 hours or whatever for their design. We give the client everything including the original on trace, and implore them to make copies for the builders.

We've only been burned a few times and we learn our lesson as we go. I like that one guys contract, I wish we charged that much.