[papercutter]

If you look beyond some of the... stuff that's cropped up, there have been some interesting points as relate to the original intent of the thread. To sum them all up, here's a question for everyone doing residential (Jody, I'm really curious to hear your response): when you show your portfolio to prospective clients, do you include a sample rendered plan, elevation and/or perspective drawing?

I do. As I've mentioned in the past, I feel that seeing these things reinforces to the client that I'm an artist as well as a technician. One other thing I've done is create a section dedicated to one project. I show the before photos, rendered plan, perspective drawinsg, CAD construction plans, and finished photos. I feel like it gives me a way to show them what the design development and construction process looks like.

One more question: who controls the portfolio in the meeting? I was always taught, when I was studying interior design, that you *always* control what page they're on, what the conversation is about, and you don't just sit back and let the client flip. I'm not THAT rigid- it's just not me- but I've found the more I control the portfolio presentation, the better the meeting.

[tfld]

Jody--

Let me apologize for insulting you and others. I apologize for that. Still, I thought you would have had a little thicker skin. You can say all you want about my work if it makes you feel better. Thanks..Have a nice day.

[jshilan]

Dave let me first start by saying that my business model is probably a little different then yours and is somewhat of a hybrid of the traditional role of an LA and a designer who works directly for a DB firm. I market myself to the contractors and work for design fees and/or sales commissions depending on which contractor I am working with/for. My goal is to design something that sells the big idea quickly, can be estimated and contracted quickly, and can be built.with some interpretation by the contractor (see Dan D's previous post).
With that said, I do everything I can to limit what I present to the client. It sounds counter intuitive, but I just bring a copy of the drawing that I posted earlier (and has been the subject of a recent controversy). I just want to "wow" them with a cool layout and something colorful to look at. I keep my portfolio in the car and bring it out only if I think I need it to close the initial deal. I used to use it as part of my one hour dog and pony show, with a resume and references and even a tour of previous projects (ugh). Now I just listen a lot, ask a lot of questions and take good notes during this initial meeting along with showing them my sample plan so they know what to expect. One important thing that I also do during the meeting is subtly present ideas that help the client realize how little they know and how much I can help them. I also like to point out that the plan is the least expensive and most important part of the entire project.This works pretty well for me.
But again my goal is to help get the plan to contract as quickly as possible and leave many of the material selections up in the air until a deposit for the work is provided.
So getting back to your question about who controls the portfolio, it doesn't matter to me and if I don't need it, it sits in the FJ with my 100' tape, my wheel and my handy dandy laser and rod.
Over the years I have developed processes for everything we do. Each year I tighten them and streamline them and interestingly enough,I waste very little time now, sell more work each year and get to do some really interesting projects.

I hope this is of value to you.

[papercutter]

It is, actually, and makes a lot of sense. I find that the longer I do this, the less time it takes and the better my close ratio. Which is good- because coffee is for closers!

[agla]

"My goal is to design something that sells the big idea quickly, can be estimated and contracted quickly, and can be built." Jshilan

This is what is going to make it for 98% of the landscape work that is out there. There is the other 2% (yes, these numbers are straight from my backside) where the big design production is wanted and needed. That is a very small segment of the market. It is one with a lot of money in it, though. There is nothing wrong with any of it.

The only thing fundamentally wrong withany of this is when any of us define the standard for the whole industry is one thing or another. Someone else used the fly-fishing term "you have to match the hatch to catch your fish". Nothing could be more accurate.

Looking back at Jody's quote
"My goal is to design something that sells the big idea quickly, can be estimated and contracted quickly, and can be built."
That is really what any of us is doing from the guy who walks around waving his arms at things on the site to plant a little foundation planting to the guys with a 37 sheet landscape design package. The differences are that what sells to one client is different than what is needed to sell to another, what is needed to generate an appropriate estimate and contract changes from project to project (niche to niche), and what is necessary to get it built reasonably correctly varies greatly from project to project.

Once you realize your market, you bend the talents that you have to maxamize your effectiveness. Some of us will use greater graphic skills, others might have more charismatic personalities, another might just seem to be deeply knowledgable, or have something that just makes a client want him.

Still, we are only talking about the aspect of communicating here. It is the tip of the iceberg. So much more goes into it.

If you are in design/build (same company doing both) then construction documents are a liability rather than an assett. They are important when something ges out to bid and can have a much smaller affect in selling design. They can blow up design expenses reducing your competitive advantage in many cases. It makes it easier for the client to get somebody else. It gives the client documentation if you changed how you built something for whatever reason.

If you are in design only, lack of documentation can kill you.

[tfld]

I guess what I can contribute to the discussion and maybe what I didn't make so clear earlier on is that in my area of work I see alot of my "graphics" go out in sd and dd submittals for all types of projects, even the small environmental design or residential stuff. It has become clear to me over the past few years that these "fantasy" drawings are what sets the bar for every bit of work we submit later, to some degree, and validates our opinions and inclusion in the design and development process. After spending 5 years in design-build I can see the clear difference between design-build and design-only is in process. Not to say the design-only process is contrived, but requires much more in-depth verbal and graphic communication than projects you're going to build yourself. There are regitered LA's in the small office I'm at now that oversee the construction documentation and all processes for that matter. No one expects any contractor to estimate from any of the drawings I've shown, that's typically FAR down the road. Still, this discussion started about graphics and coloring and illustration and what is charged. I think it would be useless to talk about what the offices I have worked in charge for my time in this discussion. To me, when I see what's billed to the client for my time I cannot beleive it. But it's a different animal than design-build. The point in attaching my drawings was to offer something to the discussion on graphic technique. I think it would be beneficial for everyone to try and elevate each others quality of work.

So back to that discussion--I think Mike Lins graphics are dated. In this office I'm sitting in now we would probably not be taken very seriously if we all drew (drawed like Mike Lin. The reason I say this is that there are limitations to that style. Actually, there are limitations to either a more digital or manual style. Both are equally difficult, but alot of the work we do here requires frequent and minor changes to design elements that also need to be presentable and of the highest quality. I'm not sure what this is all worth in this discussion.

Back to topic--

Here are a couple of residential projects I'm working on now. One is still just a schematic for a very simple landscape plan for a mid-century home. The client on the first is the architect who is doing the remodel. The second is a special project with a small budget and special needs. The fees on both of these projects are around $1500-5000...FWIW...

...

[tfld]

[jshilan]

Every time I try to get out you keep pulling me back in.

Originally Posted by tfld

The point in attaching my drawings was to offer something to the discussion on graphic technique. I think it would be beneficial for everyone to try and elevate each others quality of work.

I think Mike Lins graphics are dated. In this office I'm sitting in now we would probably not be taken very seriously if we all drew like Mike Lin.
...

Nick, Nick, Nick. See here's the thing. Your assumption is that your graphic style or that of Michael Van Valkenberg
or computer generated graphics in general are of a higher quality. You would like to "elevate" the level of drawings produced to that of what you assume to be more accurate or of a more professional quality.

According to you and your limited experience, Mike Lins style (and my adaptation of his style) are dated and presumably inferior or out of touch with today's representations of what a landscape plan should look like.

I have to believe that you also assume that the better the graphic presentation (a style similar to what you are presenting) than the better the design and ultimately the better the quality of the installation.

You say that you would not be taken seriously with the types of drawings I produce. Ironically, the landscape contractors I work with often show me CAD plans created by CLA's that are incredibly detailed and are outstanding graphically, but are not worth the paper they are printed on because they are useless in the field. Some actually refer to them as "cartoons".Talk about not being taken seriously.

I think agla put the best spin on all of this by essentially saying that we all have the same goals and objectives for the client and the project. We all just have different approaches and styles and strengths and weaknesses. What works for one does not necessarily work for another and one person's or companies process is not superior to anothers.

I whole heartedly agree with this.

[tfld]

Jody-

I think you're projecting..

It's pretty obvious you have some hangup about degreed professionals, why is this? Do you have a degree? Do you know what earning a degree entails?

There's nothing in my message to indicate that I think graphic style is indicative of quality of construction. I think you're reaching. By the way, what's a CLA?

Here's a blast from the past..deja vu...I guess we all get started somewhere

Color Renderings

Aside from that, I'd love to hear any real criticism from you.

[tfld]

..............

[agla]

I think that you might find that Jody has an advanced degree in landscape architecture from a prestigious school. If there is a hang up, it is not from the outside looking in.

[tfld]

May be so...But there's obviously something there.

[jshilan]

Apparently this post has strayed somewhat from it's original concept. As much as the recent posts have hopefully added some entertainment value, I think it is time to move on to new posts or change the direction of this one back to it's original discussion.

I just wanted to say:

Dan (Dan D), I appreciate your kind comments. I should have taken your "hint" and not gotten distracted, but I admittedly took the bait (twice).

Dave (papercutter) thanks for trying to get us back on track.

Andrew (agla), thank you for you 2 posts. One that presented an excellent summary of the many items that were being discussed, and the second for the words of support.

On the educational side I learned two very important lessons.

1. It takes a really long time to thumb type on a blackberry (and the letters are really small)
2. I spend way too much time at night responding to posts.

[papercutter]

In the last couple days I've typed several responses, then thought better of them, deleted them, and went back to work. This has gotten really f***ing stupid, because at the end of the day my color renderings serve some combination of the following purposes: 1) they can help me close the sale and 2) I like rendering my drawings. I can't imagine it's any different for anyone else. Nick, what you do works for the type of work you do, and you find it satisfying. I have some Photoshop renderings in my archive portfolio. I found them boring and soulless, so I did a few and went back to working with markers, pencils and gouache. That doesn't mean your way is wrong. It simply means that your way is not right for me. Your work looks good enough to stand on its own. You needn't prop it up with unnecessary attitude.

[tfld]

It was a tough week. I apologize for the attitude on my end.

Jody-It's not your fault.

YouTube - it's not your fault scene

Thanks guys..