[secondnature]

In being hired for install supervision, I am wondering what this entails for other designers that are doing this as an added service to their clients. I am new at this facet of service.

What do you charge your client? Do you charge the same fee as your design fee? Do you charge hourly or a flat fee? If you charge hourly, do you take a retainer upfront?

What are some of the tasks, how many visits and when? What do you feel your objective is in being there? Do you have arranged meetings with the contractor AND the client? Are there
contracts at all that you have btwn the client and yourself?

Any shared info would be great (as you can see I have lots of questions!).

Thank you!

[FungusMudGrub]

As I install my own designs, my reply is somewhat theoretical, but here's what I would do:

Fees would just be part of the initial design fee, where I budgeted in the required number of site visits to check on each phase of the install. I would include a clause that any additional hours required by some emergency or what-have-you would be billed hourly at the design/consulting rate.

As for the actual service, I would see my role as being a representative of the client to make sure that the terms and specs in the contract are adhered to (plant size, base compaction, mulch depth, etc) and that the integrety of the design is kept intact. This may include doing the layout, if the contractor isn' t up to it.

The real value of the designer being involved in job supervision is dealing with the inevitable surprises that crop up - the client changing their mind about something, or some site condition that is uncovered during the install. The designer is generally better able to deal with these. as they have the big picture in mind, and can craft a solution that maintains the overall feel and functionality of the landscape.

[mdvaden]

As a designer, I would never do it, and as a landscape contractor, I would not take a contract where someone supervises my project that my name is on the dotted line for.

Now, I'm willing to work as a "project consultant" and willing to hire a designer in that capacity.

In other words, the designer needs to be on-hand in case anybody needs assistance interpreting the plan.

Also, if a designer will slow down the installation project as a "supervisor", the landscaper and homeowner need to include in the contract that "X" number of dollars will be paid for each hour the designer may tack-on to the project.

That's a fairly reasonable way to handle it.

[oakleaf]

mdvaden has it exactly, - I can back him up as we also have both a design company and a landscaping company.
To clarify, and this is something we only found out through trial and error although it is obvious retrospectively - you have:
1/ Designer
2/ Site Manager (if required)
3/ Contractor
4/ Client

Of these - stay away from number two and one day (with luck) you might just be able to quit 1/3 and focus on being 4.
We provide onsite consultancy by a designer for clarification of our designs charge at design rates, in pre-agreed time blocks/fees. However re remain firmly 'Designer'.
We have learnt from one real nighmare that it is really important to stress to the client that as designer you are not his site manager and either he must manage his contractors or pay an independent one. We do not have the time/resources/inclination for such work. We got caught once having to babysit a contractor who really didn't have a clue what he was doing. It would have been quicker (and possibly even cheaper if you counted all my time!) to send in one of my crews for free.

[oakleaf]

Also, I apologise but I'm afraid I must totally disagree with FungusMudGrub.
Answering your questions a little more precisely:

Don't get hired. The problem is exactly as you state. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know what this will entail as you can be working with gifted subcontractors or with one man and his uncle who are totally ill equipped. Even if you can get paid on a blank check basis (highly unlikely) - it will be hugely disruptive to your other business to the point where being paid will not be enough as your "proper" work flow will be suffering.

This may include doing the layout, if the contractor isn' t up to it.

And if he isn't up to proper formwork? And anything else? OK. I'm being sarcastic to make a point and I apologise. but the point remains. You have no idea how competent the contactor will be but you will find yourself trapped in the middle, responsible for the outcome, possibly having to check every step of a poor contractors work and fielding every whim of the client. Not a happy place to be.

If you really must (you haven't signed up have you??!) make sure it is at least what you would charge hourly on normal basis. As I said, I wouldn't ever do it - but if you insist - drawing down on a deposit would seem eminently sensible.

Basically a site manager is there to solve all the problems on site - whatever they may be. These can be technical, personal, financial, subcontractor relations, client relations, general communication between all parties - anything. Large sites we have worked on where an independent site supervisor was employed saw him on site at the very least every other day. Busy periods and he would pop in every day.
Once a week we would have a formal meeting getting management reps from all subs on site, with him, designers, architect etc. He would also prepare formal site notes weekly.

There. My 2€! Hope that helps.
As far as I'm concerned - unless you are completely out of design work - you need site supervision like a hole in the head.

[kinnanscaping]

How many out there are in fact a designer as well as the job supervisor/crew chief/site coordinator/etc.? I am thinking in terms of a small company, which is what I am at this point. I am looking at "subbing" out some design work, but I also need a reliable supervisor that can carry out a plan almost as well as I could (probably better than I could for that matter). I am curious if there are any of you, then, that a) employ a designer/supervisor? or b) are in fact a designer/supervisor working for a company?

Thanks.

[agla]

I was a designer/supervisor employed by a few companies (one at a time) for several years. What is it that you wuld like to know?

[kinnanscaping]

I guess I was just looking at whether or not it is a common scenario. I understand that this thread was started by someone that strictly has her (I think it's her) own design company and is being asked to do the supervision as well. I know that I will need to have actual designs working in my favor during the bidding process, as early as next Spring. I can't draw, and I don't want to take nor have the time to learn CAD. There are only so many jobs I can walk the client around the yard on and tell them to trust my instincts. I visualize and conceptualize very well, but none of the above abilities are mine.

Anyway, I also know that I need a reliable crew chief. Someone that is going to handle on-site logistics, coordination and job delegation. He or she will get paid a decent amount more than the laborers.

I am too small to hire both a crew chief and a dedicated designer, so I am inquiring about whether or not decent designers that also supervise crews and jobs are out there and viable.

Hypothetical: I meet the client, walk through the property with him or her, sell the company and the product. I then take their thoughts and ideas along with measurements and photos to my designer. S/he then draws up a plan along with my input. I sell the plan, the designer then coordinates and oversees the completion of the plan. If we get the job, the designer gets some commission along with hourly pay for overseeing the job they played a part in.

Thank you again for any feedback on this.

[agla]

The difficulty is that a good designer/project manager has to have two of the most important skill sets that an owner of a design/build would want to have. To have those, that person has had to be in the position to develop those skills which means (s)he has such a job, has run his own business, or is very capable of starting his own design/build. The reason that this is a problem is that you need to have a situation that is more attractive than those other options for that person and not just a potential to have a better situation.

No one is going to take a job where they feel (rightly or wrongly) that they bring more to the table than what is already on the table. To accept a job as a designer/PM the job has to lifting that person up to a higher end market, or being part of a recognized elite company, or some other existing situation that they do not yet have.

When you think about it, you are looking to attract someone of just about the same or better abilities that you have. So, it makes sense to think about what it would take for you to drop what you are doing to go work for someone else. Are you about to do that?

The other problem is what tasks are you going to have this person doing to fill in his schedule. Are those things that are going to become a drag and drive that person away? A good designer/sales person can sell a lot of work. The hard part, believe it or not, is getting it built. The designer could sell your entire capability for the year in just two or three months. Then he's out in the field with the crews working harder and with no potential for commissions. It gets complicated.

[papercutter]

I've come at this a couple different ways: in one instance, I worked for a large design/build company. We were straight commission, and we had the option of a lower percentage commission if we had the company manage our install, or a higher cut if we managed it. I had no shortage of leads and was a strong closer, so I never managed a job; I could make the extra dollars sitting at my laptop on my couch.

I've also worked as a designer for a smaller design/ build, where project management is an infrequent duty that sometimes comes up when everyone else is spread too thin. I didn't take commissions, so the pay was the same whether I was drawing or painting out a patio; it was kind of a little field trip.

I currently have a design practice where I do drafting and designs for contractors, and I really don't feel like I'm missing out by not managing the projects. For clients in my local area, I'll go lay out jobs for my hourly rate, but I let them manage their own crews unless I'm specifically hired to help out.

As a designer, I'd be uncomfortable with what you proposed- you and the designer do the plans, THEN you go sell them, and hopefully the job? No way. I have too many bills to work on spec, especially when I'm counting on someone else to sell a job for me.

agla also brings up a good point when it comes to building what's sold. When I was at the commission-only job, I sold $1 million in jobs in six months; my mentor/rival at that company sold $2.1 million in the same time frame. We were two of 28 designers, and we just KILLED the construction division.

Dave

[kinnanscaping]

Thank you guys for your honest feedback. I actually didn't even feel comfortable typing up that last post, but I like to think out loud, so to speak.

I guess my ultimate question lies in what direction I am going to take my company. As I mentioned, I have little actual artistic ability, but I do a very good job implementing ideas/plans, overseeing employees, etc. I may just need to farm out designs for those clients that desire them. Then I will act as the project manager, hiring a good crew chief that makes a few extra dollars an hour above the general laborers. That crew chief will be in charge any time that I am not present, etc. Does this sound more reasonable, that is until I grow large enough to bring on an in-house designer?

Thank you once again.
Brandon

[papercutter]

I think that's totally reasonable; based on stories from my current clients about designers they've worked with in the past, I'd make a few recommandations. First, define the relationship between you, the designer, and the client as clearly as possible. Will the designer be meeting with the client on your behalf, and then presenting the finished design? Or will you provide all the info to the designer, then go sell the design to the client yourself?

There are pros and cons to both approaches. Obviously, there's less room for something to get lost in the translation if the designer gets the program straight from the client's lips. But what happens when the designer, who may feel like they work for the homeowner more than you, is asked "can we still work with you if we go with another contractor?" I have one of my clients in New England because of exactly this conflict. Again, define that relationship clearly.

Make sure any agreements are thorough and well thought-out. Who actually owns the final design? At what point do you pay the designer? Does the designer get any rights to use finished photos in his or her portfolio? If so, is construction attributed properly?

Lots to think about, but I think it's a great way to go.

[agla]

The problem that I see is that you are expecting to get the opportunity to get jobs that will require you to sub a designer. My experience tells me that people hire a designer who they are comfortable with and have great confidence that the designer or contractor is going to get the results that they want. Hiring someone that will sub out the design does not fit that situation very well. They are more likey going to find someone who removes the most uncertainty.

[papercutter]

All depends how you sell the relationship. Some of my clients, mostly the ones who send me scribbles to clean up, never let on that it's not done in-house. Because they come up with the broad concept and I just work out the details, make it buildable and make it pretty, they're comfortable with that. Most are totally up front about working with a designer, though; I guess the way they feel confident with it is that they have a portfolio of built work, so they can prove they can execute a well-done design.

[schleng]

I used to work as a subcontractor for a Design/Build firm.I received 80% of the design fee. This was good for me, and good for the owner. I was independent, and he did not have me on his salary. He had plenty of work for me.

The owner would initially meet with the clients. He would give them some ideas and give them a price for a design, explaining to them that "his" designer" would be doing the design. He would get a 50% design deposit. I would then meet with them myself. I think people liked this as they got a lot of attention. Many times I changed his ideas around (he did not mind).

I would do a preliminary design and meet with the clients.
At that time I would collect the balance of the design fee. No one seemed to have a problem with this and even now with my own business, I still work this way. I feel most of the work goes into the preliminary. Also if they decide not to move forward with the final design, I have been paid.

I would then complete the final design. The owner would draw up the estimate/proposal and we would meet with the clients together to present both the final design and the estimate.

If they decided to go ahead and use his company for the installation, I would be involved in the PM, and get a % of the project.

I believe there was one time that I was privately asked if I would manage the project if they used another company for the installation. I said no.

This is a pic of one of the projects from when I worked in this capacity.

Susan