[secondnature]

Ha!

OK, so I have met with a local installer who has this to offer. Has done this with another designer in the area.

I meet and secure the job with client. I present my design services in conjunction with this certain installer only. If needed, the installer can meet the client (as afterall, they will be doing the hiring, not myself as I am not a licensed contractor).

I then come up with my ideas for the property. I then meet with the installer at the site (w/o the client) and go over my ideas and we come to a conclusion as to what is really possible and what looks great and fits the client's wishes. A design collaboration if you will. Could be a great situation, as I am not always qualified to make educated calls on slope, retainment, drainage, etc.

I then present my conceptual to the client and get the oK to move on. This installer is hired to do the work as previously arranged by the client. I have been hired by the client to supervise and make sure things go as planned, correct materials used, etc. The installer does not have to interface with the client at all. Is this strange, as the home owner has HIRED the installer himself? How is this normally handled?

Now as far as pricing goes, the designer that they are currently working with charges a minimal fee for the design, charges an hourly for the supervision of the install, then the installer writes her a check for 5% of the job price once the job is complete/or in transit.

If there is no competition for the bid, they will do this. If the job goes out to bid, they have to be more competitive with price and cannot beef up the bid to cover the 5% they pay out to me.

What is also interesting to me is that this particular designer does not really do a full scale plan for her client. She basically does a conceptual (not to scale) to show the client, along with enlarged 8 x 10 photos with tissue overlays to show side profiles as needed. She uses photos to represent some things. She is doing work in a higher end area of town.

I like the idea of less drafting (even with CAD I spend a huge amount of time at it). Because of less drafting she can charge less for the design itself (making up for it with the 5% in the install bid that she gets) and then a little bit more with the hourly supervising. For five years or so I have provided full scaled drawings, some pretty detailed with numerous pages. I have not worked specifically with a installer before, I basically have just handed my drawing off to the great blue yonder.

Has anyone ever had this arrangement set up and have it work? Does anyone have suggestions or have concerns?

In this situation, would I have a contract signed with the client that states that they will indeed hire this particular install crew? I would not want to charge a minimal charge for design to then have them change their mind and go with someone else in the end. Even tho I would get my supervision fee, I would not be eligible for my 5% from the installer. And, is it smart to have a contract with the installer so that I get my 5% upon job completion (or at some point in the installation process)? Would not want him to lose $$ on the job or not get paid and then decide he cannot pay me.

Thanks for the input in advance!

[Inspired]

I guess there are a lot of ways to work it out. That sounds complicated, though.

As a designer, I only work two ways:

1.) I work for the owner of the property. In this case I would recommend the contractor I think would be most capable of completing the job properly and pleasing the customer. By the time I recommend the contractor, I generally have a very good working relationship with the owner and the contractor usually gets the job.

2.) I work for a contractor. In this case the contractor usually has a customer that would appreciate a formal design and it helps the contractor sell the job. The contractor pays me an hourly rate or sometimes he has a cap on what he can spend or a flat rate for the design. It depends on the situation. One contractor I work with always tells the prospective customer what the design fee will be right up front.

Nobody gets kick-backs or referral fees. We just get a strong referral delivered with confidence that the job will be performed professionally.

My two cents,
Bill

[agla]

I've worked as Bill does and as an employee for design/build companies.

This could be a very good thing if the contractor is good. It sounds like an increase in income from whatt you are used to. The biggest thing is that you'll have a huge opportunity to learn a lot about construction supervision with what should be a supportive contractor. That will put you ahead exponentially as long as he is good and holds up his end.

Will the contractor is giving you leads for design work or is he relying on you to be bringing in the work from your own resources?

[secondnature]

Thanks Agla!

I would be bringing in the design jobs from my own resources.

I think it could be a good situation also. I believe that they are good installers. I have referred them to some work already and they did a fair job. They are a two man company with a small crew that can do many facets of a given job, from rock work to wood work to metal work. I like the combining of forces with someone who knows the design portion (me), and someone who's expertise is the install, the nuts and bolts. With good communication and working together, I think this would be optimal. I sometimes can come up with a vision w/o knowing exactly how it can be implemented the correct way (certain drainage issues, retaining wall situations, steps, etc). Then when I am interfacing with client I can offer sound solutions based not only on a finished look, but functionally and practicality as well.

Do you think I need to develop some contracts of some sort for both installer and client?

The supervising role I am not familiar with, and to start I will not know what to charge, how many hours it will take, etc. I could just track my hours and charge my client by the hour. I am supposing that I would be requirred to be on site at the start of any new phase, for sure at the beginning to confirm layout (?).
Yes a very good way to learn the nuts and bolts on my own!

Thanks

[Dale Wiley]

From a contractors standpoint, you can only have a contract with the property owner , to preserve your lien rights under Oregon law.

Oregon law requires very specific contract form, language and terminology, such as an exact listing of the plants and the sizes to be used. It is highly unusual for the contractor to not have contact with or a contract with the property owner.

You can have contract or agreements with the designer in any way you want, or fees or referrals.

I do not understand how you are reaching a final price for the work unless you and the contractor are preparing the quotes together.

I would also want to have some sort of mediation or conflilct resolution process between you the contractor and the home owner.

[secondnature]

We would both be hired separately by the property owner.

My understanding of this scenario is that the client would pay me for my design services separately, along with the hourly supervisory fee.

In my initial communication with the client, I would find out budget. The contractor would meet me on site and we would talk about ideas for the property generally within that budget. Once the design is OK'd with the client, he contractor would submit a bid for the work.

I am basically giving a strong referral to the client, and in return I get a % of the job for that referral.

Are there any scenarios, Dale, that you can think of that would be an issue?

Thanks!

[sdinenno]

I don't know if it's of any value to anyone but this is how I've been working my designer/contractor relationship for the last six months and it seems to be working:

I use three designers who are independent contractors. But they all carry personalized business cards from my company. When I get calls for landscaping projects that require a design, I give the lead to one of them and they set the appointment. They meet with the client representing themselves under my company's name. I require them to not only design the landscape but also estimate and try to sell the job, if possible. After the sale, they are expected to stop by the job site from time-to-time just to make sure that the plan is understood by the installer (who is also a sub) and is being followed by him.

The client is told by me in advance that we charge $75-$125 for the initial consultation (depending on the distance) and $50 per hour for any design work beyond that. The designers are told to give a firm quote for the design on the first visit. We have a minimum charge of $500 for design work in addition to the consultation fee and most designs are in the $800-$1200 range.

The designer gets to keep the entire consultation fee. He also keeps the design charges minus 10% for the company. If the designer sells the job, then he gets a 5% commission and I refund the 10% I took out of the design charge (the 10% helps to cover my lead cost and enables me to feed the designers leads from DIYer's who don't want installation).

So, in effect, I have turned independent designers into my company's sales force.

It works for the designers because they don't have to spend time and money trying to generate their own leads and they can earn more money on commission than they can from design fees alone. Plus they appreciate the fact that I encourage them to charge the client what they believe their time is worth, rather than asking them to cut their design fees in order to attract more clients for myself. I believe that design professionals ought to be paid well for their time, and I also believe that cut-rate design only attracts the ones who want cut-rate installation.

It works for me because I don't have to hire full-time employees for design, estimating, or sales, nor do I have to do these things myself. Also, I like the fact that everything is done under my company's name and so it all appears seamless to the client.

And it works for the clients because they like to deal with one person from beginning to end, and know that the designer and installer will be working hand-in-hand throughout the project. And not having the costs involved with employees (payroll taxes, insurance, etc.) helps me to keep my costs down and offer a good price to them.

[agla]

I'm confused. The designer is a sub and the installer is a sub. Who are you in this whole thing?

[TrickyDick]

I was going to ask the same question.

[sdinenno]

Originally posted by agla
I'm confused. The designer is a sub and the installer is a sub. Who are you in this whole thing?

The orchestra conductor.

[Dale Wiley]

The installler does not estimate the job ??

The designer estimates the job and gets those ( no offense here intended) measly fees .. you hand it off to the installer and he blindly installs it based upon some designers estimating ??

Must be a different wrld down there in Atlanta...

[schleng]

Hi Karla,
It's great that you will be getting out in the field and getting that experience. I have a few comments.

1. Since you are the one getting the Clients, you are in the driver's seat. I understand your feeling not quite sure about such things, as grading, drainage, etc. I think most contractors would be happy to work with you being as you are giving them work. So don't feel tied to just this contractor, unless he is a great one. As you know, his work will impact the success of your design. But it is also good at times to get feed back from those that have the real life field experience.

2. It will be difficult for you to estimate number of hours for project management. In addition, many people would like to know up front what they are being charged. Figure the amount of time you think you might spend on project supervision, decide on your hourly fee, and charge the client a percentage of project costs. You can start with a very reasonable percentage. As you get more experienced, you can raise it.

3.You should have a contract with the Client for the design. Then you should have an additional contract for project supervision. In addition you really should get Errors and Omissions Insurance, which will help cover you if you are ever sued. You never know.

4. I feel it is better to forget about any money from the contractor. First of all you should be working in the interest of the client completely, and there could be a conflict if you are getting paid on both ends. Secondly, you will make out so much better financially if you create relationships with contractor(s) and get referrals. With these referrals you will get work you would not have received before, and you have the opportunity to make money on both the design and project management.

I am suggesting these things, because as a designer, they apply to me also.

Susan

[sdinenno]

I should have been more clear.

The designer and my main landscaping sub estimate most of the jobs together. The designer gets quotes from my suppliers for the materials and the installer gives us a quote based on the hours he estimates for his labor. The designer compiles quotes from my other subs when they are involved, and then sends me all of the figures so that I can draft a contract. The designer then tries to close the sale when he presents his final drawing.

I'm interested in hearing why you think those are measly fees. The designer is not expected to be on-site as a full-time project manager for the 5% commission, just stop by occasionally to see if things are looking the way he envisioned.

We're in the process of closing a $250,000 residential job for which the designer will get a $12,500 commission on top of the $1,600 design fee. That seems like a good deal for him, as far as I can tell.

[gnite21]

I see that this is an older topic, but I'd like to chime in anyway. [Administrator... if you think this should be a new thread, please move it as you see fit.]

Background: I'm a designer starting in the landscape design business. I have been a professional graphic designer for about 20 years (with my own business since '94)... and have been hobbiest gardener (and garden designer) for about the same time period. I have come to a point in life where I want to feel more rewarded in my work life, and have LONG heard that one can make a living doing what they love. Since I've long loved gardening, and garden design, (and am burned out on many aspects of graphics... though I'm still working in that field) I took that mantra to heart... but only after much encouragement from friends and family who saw the skills I'd developed helping everyone else.

Though I don't have formal horticulture training, I have 20 years of self-teaching, and believe me, I am into research and knowledge and look EVERYTHING up. And I found out, as I became a Master Gardener last year, that I knew more horticulture than I thought I did.

With that information setting my stage, I have some concerns as I am shifting my business from designing brochures, posters and magazines to gardens and landscapes.

I see by reading other posts that pricing one's services are vague and variable. Such is the graphic design business. So this is nothing new. Same with getting clients. What IS new for me is working with installation contractors or the DIYer... doing just part of the overall job (the design part). My most pressing issue is regarding degree of detail in my designs (because it relates to money as in how long it takes me to draft a plan). I don't do the installation or purchasing of plants for the clients. I've read here and other places that many installers won't do the installation if they can't get the plant materials mark-up. I have no problem with that.

I've been reading that some of you crank out a design in an hour or 2. WHAT?! I can't get the client's lot and house blueprint scan and scale into my computer in less than an hour. (Most clients so far can't get their hands on their home's blueprints, so I must get it online.) And granted, I'm using my graphics software right now... can't afford CAD yet. But just doing the search online for the county building and lot records and images, downloading them, converting the formats and then scaling them into my own software takes a good hour. I can't possibly design an acre landscape in the remaining hour!!! HOW DO YOU DO IT!?!

So here is my question.....

Do you installation contractors expect to get a detailed and perfectly-to-scale drawing from a designer?

I've come to understand that the contractor can be my best friend in their expertise of slope and construction of hardscape, etc. I depend on that, and try to design plans that WILL work given the site and client's budget. Still, my plans are conceptual... because I'm not an engineer... nor want to pass myself off as one. I'm wondering if making the plans to such exacting detail as I currently do (and lose my butt on financially), is what you contractors want/need?

So far, I've not found a client who wants to pay for a design that is a 'complete' working drawing with scale and precision, and even instructions on some detail aspects for the contractor that might help them build what I've designed more easily (clarity notes). I also know many contractors have done so many rock walls and patios and such, that they don't NEED explicit working drawings to whip that type of thing off.

From my graphic design background, I'm used to preparing exacting detail on files going to press. It's in my nature to be that detailed. But it takes many more hours to produce such detail on an acre lot design... for which (as an example) the homeowner only wants to pay $600 to have a master plan right down the annual and perennial details. (And by the way, I have had architecture training... particularly in drafting... about 12 credits or so... while in art school studying design. So I know drafting, scale, etc. It's not like I'm not capable of producing the detail.)

So my question here is... Am I going to too much detail for a conceptual design? Will the contractor do his own exacting measurements when they bid the job, or will they use my plan exclusively to formulate their bid? (I've not had a client use a contractor yet... only have gotten DIYers so far.) And that sort of brings me to another point... designing for the DIYer... Don't they need all the detail and scale so they can follow the plan?

And yet... the DIYers seem unwilling to pay for such things... detailed plan. They want a plan for their acre... with plant recommendations and even maintenance schedules for $500 or less.

That brings me to another part... the plant list. It is very laborious to produce. The right software would help... which I don't have right now. I spend many of my 'design' hours preparing the plant list. Clients don't want simply a list of their plants, they want how large it's going to be and other characteristics... also a photo of it... and a couple of my clients wanted a fertilization/pruning schedule, too.

Given the fact that the contractor may install different items than are initially designed (for a multitude of reasons), isn't it a waste of time/resources to prepare a detailed plant list before the actual installation is complete? As the installation contractor, do you want/need a plant list with all the details about the plants to take on a project? Do you guys produce plant lists as part of your services? I know some of you are build and maintain businesses... so would you prepare such a plant list in hopes of getting to do the maintenance?

OK, I've rambled on probably too long... I'll be banned from the forum for sure! But I'd really be interested in hearing some feedback.

Thanks, Beth

[agla]

I think it would be both far easier and far more useful for a DIYer to get a verbal description and a detailed plant list than to get a wonderful color graphic to perfect scale with no plant list.

You have to put yourself in the perspective of your client. They want a built landscape. You are but one step in the direction of getting that. The one thing that is universally true in why a person hires a landscape designer is to reduce uncertainty in the outcome of the project. That is true with a DIYer with a $200 budget or a corporation with a $10 million budget. There is a huge difference in what those uncertainties are, however. What deliverable goods (such as graphic plan, maintenance schedule, ... or plant list) are helpful to one may be of little consequence to another.

The problem with coming into landscape design from outside is that the view of what it takes to do landscape design is seen from a simplistic point of view. That view is that it is about and understanding of plants and an artistic layout of those plants. One believes that if he is good at those two things and has a way of putting onto paper in one form or another, he has value as a landscape designer. He does only if the client needs only an artistic layout of plants and strongly believes that this designer is more capable than the next. The problem is that this is seldom the case.

Needs vary widely from one client to the next. Most only have a limited knowledge of what they want. Getting that information out of them is the first skill set you have to develop. Understanding the site is the second thing you'll have to learn (and I don't mean solar orientation, soils, and micro-climate). The art of blending the clients wishes and needs (needs may conflict with wishes) with the realities of the site is the next skill set you'll need (still not talking about plants). I could go on, but I'll get back the question of what to give your client.

You have to balance out what your client needs to get the job done between their design budget and the capability of the contractors that are likely to do the job (keeping in mind that they me be doing it themselves. If the contractors are not knowledgible, you have to fill that gap or you are not of much value. If the contractors do have a lot of experience they may be more capable of the design work and displace the new designer.

A very basic landscape plan should show plants reasonably representative of their size relative to everything else in the plan whether to scale or not and should have a plant schedule. A plant schedule is simply a list of plants including how many of each and their size. The plant names should be both common and botanical. Sometimes they should be called out to a partcular variety or cultivar. The plant sizes should be spec'd according to American Nursery Standards for Nursery Stock as to what will be installed (ie, #3 container or 30"-36" b&b). I'm not understanding what is difficult about including a plant schedule.

Maintenance schedules, sample boards, photos of each plant, and such are nice add on services that you can do to set yourself apart or for added fees. These would come afer the basics that are necessary to procure the materials and layout the job and/or to get a standard for apples to apples bid comparisons.

Your clients, whether they are millionaires or trailer park tennants, want you to take away uncertainty. If great graphics help and is affordable, then do it. If a quick crayon sketch with good information does it better, than do that.

It is not bad if you have a standard set of things that you provide regardless of who might be calling on you. You don't need to compromise your standards to take on work who can't afford what you do. You just have to accept that you can't and should not work for everyone. You also might need to figure out if you need broader skill sets to make a living doing this.

I don't know your skill sets or who your clients are, but I would suggest that starting with the standard basic planting plan minimum items would be best. Then expand into greater graphics and add on items like maintenance schedules. You will do more for your clients going at it that way than by making knockout graphics with nonspecific information.

Making a living as a landscape designer without building is a very hard thing. Look around you at the many older "designers who are pulling plants out of their Toyota pickups and digging holes, or you see them working part time (or full time) somewhere else, or they have a spouse or partner that is earns enough to make up the difference.

Those that do make a living have a very diverse knowledge base and skill set. They are not just sketching up a rendering of a planting layout, handing it over, and cashing checks.

I hope this helps.

PS. Don't use "Master Gardener" as a professional credential.