[Alberto]

It seems that sometimes I overdesign or price myself out of a job. If I talk to a client about what they want, then do a design based on that talk, but I don't get then job, then later on go by their house and see a much scaled down landscape installed I have to assume that I overdesigned or overbid. This bugs me. Most times the client won't give me a budget so I can't base my design on a number. Maybe the customer has no idea of what things cost and is embarrassed to call back wanting to scale down the project, so they call another landscaper. And this can happen on residential or commercial projects. How do you guys handle situations like this, in the first meeting?

[Dale Wiley]

Originally posted by Alberto
Most times the client won't give me a budget so I can't base my design on a number.

Then how can you complain that you did not get the job ??

If I don't get a budget figure, I WILL NOT waste my time with absolutely NO IDEA what they can, will, want to, or spend on a project.

First site visit meeting, I have to come out of it with a number to work towards.

I meet with one lady who wanted a job done. OK... I will do a design for you. $ 950 payable now. I will have about 7 hours in the design.

Design is done....the job is about $ 14,000 when we quoted it to her, and she was fine with it. I gave her a range of $ 7,000 to
$ 18,000.

No budget or set amount, no design work.. general a general shoot form the hip cover all bases WAG number.

I refuse to not get paid for my work, and designing a project with out getting paid for it to me anyway, is insane and takes time and MONEY off my family's table. Not going to happen.

But then again, too many landscapers do it and don't get the job. Strange way to me...

Where do you make up the money and time you spent on that design that went nowhere ??

[PSUscaper]

Dale, I have to ask how you come up with a $950 design fee on a 7k to 14 k job.

I can't imagine spending 7 hours on the design, unless you are taking in account all the travel time, meeting time, and other misc. time.

I'm just curious how you do with this pricing schedule, as I don't think I would get many jobs in the 7-14k range if I'm adding 1k in design fee right off the the start.

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but I would not be landing many jobs in that price range if I came in with 1k in design fee.

Unless this is a very intricate planting job or something very complex, I just can't imagine 1k in design fees. I would love it, but I can't imagine it.

Plus, at 7 hours, thats close to $150 per hour of design fee. I know most large companies are paying designers, good designers, close to 25-30 (at the highest), and maybe billing out at 65-70.

I just have to know what a 1k design looks like on a 14k job.

[Stonehenge]

I'm charging and getting that right now, but it's only been for out-of-town projects or very large ones, where the cost is very easily justified.

A $14K patio might only take 30 minutes to design - hard to imagine charging that much for that.

However, to the question at hand - even when they don't give you a budget, and they honestly don't have a budget in mind, you can still get a budget number out of them. Do what Aztlanlc said - give them a ballpark price (plus fudge factor) based on the info they provide. Even without a budget number in their mind, they know if they can afford $10K or $20K or whatever.

The nice thing about forcing that issue is later, when you show them the finished plan, they already have an idea of what it's going to cost, so there's little stress on their part when it comes to looking at the final price.

[Dale Wiley]

Because I can....and because I value my work , my time and my profit margin.

$150 per hour ?? Right on...

It is not about the plan individually. It is about getting the client and us on the same page. It is about laying out the engineering and layout of the job, so the crew better understands it, and can install it more efficently.

It is about accurate quanities of soil, rock, plants, mulch and all other materials. It is about giving the client a plan, and if she wants us to install it, fine, if not, I am compensated for my work. I don't give a what the market is doing in regards to design fees. I don't care what they pay their designers, what they bill out, anything about what they do. Once it is down on paper, we have reached a common ground, and agreement on what the job is. The we can give them a solid, quote that wew will make money on, and if they want to change it, we will make money on the change and not lose our butts on it.

You have to understand in my market, a $ 14,000 job is right up there at the top end of the local market. I had one of the largerst and most expensive jobs in the local area in 2005 at $ 38,000 for a residential landscape with stone, water etc.

A $ 14,00 job with no plan, some scribbels on paper and he said she said is a recipe for disaster,and I have had a few of those.

See this is 2 seperate jobs. A design job and then an install job. Why not get paid for all the meetings, travel time ?? Who is going to pay for it if the client don't ?? Me ??? NO way.. I have done enough free work in the business.

A customer that is willing to pay for a design by a person who has been in the business for 28 years, is instantly qualified in my book.

By the way.. my lawyer recently charged me $ 362 an hour for some work....I charge $ 75 to $ 150 dollars an hour for sports field work. I have estimated / quoted jobs from $ 850 to $ 14,000 this week.

Sell yourself, sell your company and sell your work. If more landscapers would take the time to try and sell design work instead of "Not charging for it because no one around here does ", they might find a better paycheck coming next time.

Most of my simple smaller jobs are unit estimated at blocks of crew time with materials marked up. I can make money on those simpler jobs.

[PSUscaper]

'A $ 14,00 job with no plan, some scribbels on paper and he said she said is a recipe for disaster,and I have had a few of those'

I agree with this....but, at this stage, I have to be honest and say I don't need a plan for many 14k jobs. The customer does, but I don't. Perhaps my biggest problem is that, I myself, can't comprehend charging that much. That is more of a ethical issue than anything else.

And what is really surprising me is that, in a market where 14k jobs are a big deal, you can get 1k for the design. It isn't uncommon to getting comlaints on 1k designs for 100k jobs in this area.

As for what lawyers charge, yes, it is rediculous. But, if someone would charge me $150 an hour to do a landscape plan for a 14k job and take 8 hours doing it, I would feel just as ripped off as I did with the lawyer.

Is it great you are getting these numbers? Absolutely. But I don't think others in any way, shape or form, should think that they will too. I just think this is a very misleading statement to make.

In the end though, I guess it really doesn't matter. Maybe you are just charging the same 1k that I work into the job in other areas into the design fee rather than the job itself. One way or another, you're just trying to recoup the time you spent estimating, which I do in other ways.

I just don't want some designer reading this post and think to themselves that they should be making 150 bucks an hour. Many large companies have interns making 10 bucks and hour who whip out what are actually very nice plans in less than an hour.

On another note, I think a lot of Alberto's problem is lack of experience reading the customer. It took me a long time to get this one figured out, but I have to say that I somehow have a much better read on people these days than I have had in the past.

Also, one thing that I know has helped is just plain experience. After doing this stuff long enough, you don't necessarily need a plan or a measuring wheel to figure out what it will cost. I know similiar jobs have cost in the range of x to x dollars. I say this before I leave every estimate and make sure the client is on the same page. If they cringe, then I know we aren't. As my reputation has grown, and as more and more of my jobs become referrals, I find that the overdesigning problem has greatly shrunk.

[Dale Wiley]

Originally posted by PSUscaper
'A $ 14,00 job with no plan, some scribbels on paper and he said she said is a recipe for disaster,and I have had a few of those'

I agree with this....but, at this stage, I have to be honest and say I don't need a plan for many 14k jobs. The customer does, but I don't. Perhaps my biggest problem is that, I myself, can't comprehend charging that much. That is more of a ethical issue than anything else.


As for what lawyers charge, yes, it is rediculous. But, if someone would charge me $150 an hour to do a landscape plan for a 14k job and take 8 hours doing it, I would feel just as ripped off as I did with the lawyer.

Is it great you are getting these numbers? Absolutely. But I don't think others in any way, shape or form, should think that they will too. I just think this is a very misleading statement to make.

In the end though, I guess it really doesn't matter. Maybe you are just charging the same 1k that I work into the job in other areas into the design fee rather than the job itself. One way or another, you're just trying to recoup the time you spent estimating, which I do in other ways.

I just don't want some designer reading this post and think to themselves that they should be making 150 bucks an hour. Many large companies have interns making 10 bucks and hour who whip out what are actually very nice plans in less than an hour.

On another note, I think a lot of Alberto's problem is lack of experience reading the customer. It took me a long time to get this one figured out, but I have to say that I somehow have a much better read on people these days than I have had in the past.

Also, one thing that I know has helped is just plain experience. After doing this stuff long enough, you don't necessarily need a plan or a measuring wheel to figure out what it will cost. I know similiar jobs have cost in the range of x to x dollars. I say this before I leave every estimate and make sure the client is on the same page. If they cringe, then I know we aren't. As my reputation has grown, and as more and more of my jobs become referrals, I find that the overdesigning problem has greatly shrunk.

Man you need to check yourself.... you got some major ego going on and I don't like what your putting my way..

Ethical thing ?? You don't know a thing about my market....You don't need a plan.... great... I do and my client does so they don't try to get more than what they are paying for. Unethical???...get off it...

Misleading statement ?? Who the hell am I misleading ??

Ripped off ?? Check yourself again...

Reputation has grown.. the client cringes.....

In a price sensitive market, I get my wheel out at EVERY ESTIMATE.. and will continue to do so and I will continue to charge $ 150 per hour for design work because I can and it's not unethical, its not ripping the client off, they are guess what .. repeat clients ...

Go back at look at your post and how you worded something and see why you might have pissed me off just a little bit.

[PSUscaper]

"You have to understand in my market, a $ 14,000 job is right up there at the top end of the local market. I had one of the largerst and most expensive jobs in the local area in 2005 at $ 38,000 for a residential landscape with stone, water etc. "

I'm sorry for dragging this one out, but I just have to ask if maybe you've thought about moving out of your area then?

I know a few weeks ago you were pricing out a large brick job, and that the numbers you were coming up with weren't dratically less than other areas of the country. Therefore, I'm assuming that what you are not saying is that a 14k job in your area is like a 50k job in my area.

I'm just very confused on how you think its a good marketing strategy to charge what I think, and what I think others would agree with, are extremely high design fees in a market that sounds very low. I can't see how that would work. If the market is what it is, you aren't going to change it. You have to change your location. If your abilities are such that you can get 1k in such a depressed area, then why would you not get out of there and match a market to your abilities? No pun intended here, just a honest question. It just seems like everything you have been doing lately is setting your business up to be a cadillac, and people only buy ford festivas in your area. I agree with your business model and what you are shooting for, but I just wonder if your area can support such a model.

[mrusk]

I'll throw my 2 cents in..

Dale no offence, but you could 150 a hour design fee be the reason why residential landscape work dried up for your company?


The LA i use is absoultly incrediable. He charges me 75 bucks a hour in a market where my average job so far this year is 43k.

[agla]

Different things work for different people and in different circumstances. That is why it is great that a lot of people tell how they do it. Sometimes it will work for others, sometimes it won't.

I'm a guy who nevers asks for a budget and never really spend much time thinking about asking for one. People tell you their budget in terms of what they are asking for and other less direct ways. It is not a hard number budget, but usually you get a sense of what is over board, at least I like to think I do.

My advice to Alberto is this. Explain to the client a little bit about how you work. It sounds like you work toward giving them what they ask for and making it as nice as possible. I think you can do that and still keep your clients happy if you explain that you let them know that your method is to start with their vision and then you use your vision to maximize it.

Explain that the reason for doing this is to show possibilities, some they may like and some they may not or it might be over budget, but that it is part of the process to get them the best results. Then you will revise the plan to make it work est for them. Knowing that ahead of time will keep them from getting freaked out and make sure to reassure them that it is important to you to revise the plan to get them something that is within their budget and that they like.

There are a lot of good reasons to do it this way. One is that you can show a plan that haseverything they asked for - that prevents disappointment. Two is that they just might see something that they fall in love with and will find a way to pay for it even though it was not in their original budget - opportunity to upsell. Three, yoy do not have to crunch numbers every time you add something to the plan to see that you are on budget - save time and aggrevation while designing.

It is much easier to reduce plant sizes and material and plant numbers to bring the budget down with them being a part of the reduction process and still have a reasonably happy customer who knows you did your part. The alternative is for you to make those decisions on your own based on the budget that they gave you and all they see is something less than they were asking for which is disappointing even if it is on budget.

Alberto, this is one of those other things a professional designer has to do besides being good at designing. You have to get your client to follow your direction. Most of that comes from listening to them, reading them, and understanding them. You have to adjust to them so that you can use their likes and dislikes to get them sold on the job. A lot of that is generated by your ability to make them understand why something meets their needs and what excites you about the plan. They don't see a landscape on a plan until you describe it and get them to visualize it.

If you can make them feel like it is "their landscape" and that you only found a way to uncover that, they will love it. If they think it is a landscape for Alberto, they won't care about it at all. It is perception. You don't have to change your design style to do this, but you have to be able to make your client see it as theirs. There is a lot of psychology and communication involved.

[agla]

Too young for Jim Croce, I guess?

But, he sang " you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, and you don't pull the mask on the Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with Jim" ... or Dale, or Jeff, or....

[cutntrim]

I can't remember, but I think Alberto (like AGLA) is a designer that works for a company? Rather than an owner? If so, then I don't necessarily think it's your job to find out the customer's budget, but instead to do as AGLA says and design to their vision.

Now for me, still "green behind the ears" in construction after many years focusing on maintenance, and like Dale the guy who has to pay all the bills and put food on my kid's table...I like to hear a budget. I ask a person if they have a budget in mind and oftentimes they'll say no. So, I'll try another way and say "You may not know how much landscaping costs, but you should know how much you are comfortable or able to spend on bringing your landscaping vision to life." I'm paraphrasing, but that's the way I try to get them to answer. If that fails, then I'll let it go while I take measurements and a few digital pics. As I'm doing that, I'll think about what they've asked for and before I leave, I'll give them a range of pricing for what they're after. Then I'll ask if those are figures they had in mind. If I'm still getting nothin' then likely it's time to move on to another prospective customer.

Good luck.

[agla]

Anyone remember Alberto? He is the guy looking for a little hep in making sales while still being creative. He has asked a few questions and he is obviously not arogant and wants to learn from others as his succession of posts clearly indicate. I like spending time and effort on people who will listen, give their point of view, and participate in discussion that we all learn from.

Alberto has taught us about a perspective that a lot of us probably did not see. Many of you either have, or may plan on having, a person working for you in a similar circumstance. He is trying to make a living, do nice creative work, and make sales for his company. He has been very open with his plight including his ups and his downs.

I'd like to give him his thread back and continue to learn from him over time and like to think that some information that we give him will help him out.

Alberto does not brag, does not fight any suggestions we give him, and is trying to learn and open our eyes at the same time. He is one of the many types that make this board a great place to be.

One thing is clear to me, you can't teach that other guy anything because he thinks he knows everything. He has nothing to gain from being here and only "hooray for me" to give. Why waste your time, even if he does have a two piece custom made pool cue?

[Paul]

Sorry AGLA, No more on that other guy.

As for Alberto, I'm not the best at judging what a customer will spend, but from my few years of sales to retail customers I found that site the visit and the customers home have lots to do with how much they have to spend. At the site a few questions on how they use the yard and rough ball park numbers will weed out or let you redirect how the plan and pricing will be received.

[Stonehenge]

Ok, I split the thread into two, roughly where it diverged. The divergent discussion can be found in The Patio.

Agla, you must have Croce stuck in the CD player.