[secondnature]

Hi there.

Wondering if there are many designers/installers that work predominantly with one another out there?

I am starting to refer installation biz to a few contractors. I have had some issues with my design not being followed. I am wondering how other designers deal with this. Is it common? I am feeling like I really need to step up my supervising to make sure my designs are layed out properly and that the correct materials are being used.

How do others set this relationship up? I had someone suggest that I refer an installer and they would charge an extra amount to the client so that I could then get paid to do plant layout/bed layout, etc.

Would love to hear what other do in this department.

Thank you,

Karla

[mrusk]

Maybe you need to turn into a 'project manager' also?

I understand your frustration. Seems like alot of landscapers out there are not the smartest and can not figure out how to lay out plans correctly. If your refering work to contractors, they should atleast follow the plan correctly.

I use a LA for every job. I bring him in on every project and he does the plans for me. He flat out makes me money. Every job ends up getting signed at much higher numbers then orginally discussed.

On some complicated designs, i had him come out and do some layout/elevations with me. He charges me a minimum of $150 for each site visit.

[Stonehenge]

mrusk, I thought you said you did your designs yourself and that you regularly beat the designs from LA's w/ 20 years experience. That post was a little over a month ago. Has something changed?

To the topic at hand, re: the design not being followed - were there structural reasons why a design was not followed, or is it possible there were details left out of a plan that left a contractor to make an educated guess about something?

Give more detail about the specifics of what didn't make it from paper to earth and it might help to understand where the communication gap is.

[TrickyDick]

Why would you not charge the client directly for some supervision of the installation? Put an allowance or estimate in your original proposal for supervision. It should also be clear in the contractor's proposal that they are installing your design exactly as specified, preferably referencing a dated plan. It should be clear that you have the authority to reject work that doesn't meet the specs. Problem solved. A contractor will be a lot more careful in doing the job right if they know that ignoring the specs can cause them to have to redo it. As a designer I don't want anyone I sub work to making changes to my design without talking to me. I do everything for a reason...it may be a stupid reason and if someone points it out I can change it...but they can't change it on their own. As a contractor I don't want any ambiguity in the specs I'm following. The designer or LA needs to be clear in what they want. All materials should be specific, plants should be sized, perennials counted, measurements precise. If I think something should be changed or if I can't find a material I will call the designer and suggest that they change it. If the design sucks and I install it as speced it's not my problem. If the client doesn't want to pay for that supervision than it's not your problem. You can either walk away from the project if being involved is that important or you can leave your design and not look back.

[mrusk]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
mrusk, I thought you said you did your designs yourself and that you regularly beat the designs from LA's w/ 20 years experience. That post was a little over a month ago. Has something changed?

I do the initial concept drawings for the client and all pool designs. Then the LA draws the plan, refines my ideas, adds some stuff, and then adds the plants.

The way i am doing things seems to work great for me. I would put my designs up against anyone in my market.



Back to the topic at hand:

I'd say the plans are not being followed because of laziness. The contractor proably looks at the plan and finds a way to tweak it so he can finsh the job faster.

Its the same reason why most paver jobs fail. The contractor is to lazy to do something correctly.

[Paul]

Mrusk, If I remember right You said this in another thread!

"Then if they like me and want a accurate price i need a minimum of a $1000 retainer. Then i bring in my LA and he draws up a full plan. I have no interest in doing a job with out a plan. Once i get that retainer i am golden."

I would really want to know what you do? Do you draw it your self or do you use a LA.

Or are you just blowing smoke!

[Stonehenge]

Originally posted by mrusk
I'd say the plans are not being followed because of laziness.

I think that's a pretty big presumption. What if the client asks the contractor to do something differently than what was designed? Sounds like that may have been the case. Be careful before you start pointing the finger.

[secondnature]

In this particular experience, the installer brought flagstone pieces that he had as overage from another job and told my client that he would charge them less to use it instead of the pavers for a gravel pathway that I had specified (the tiny pieces of flagstone he substituted were simply layed on the surface over the gravel /soil transition line....no real divider utilized).

The client DID initiate some changes w/o running it past me. These, even tho they caused frustrating results, are the client's perogative, and I do want them happy with the end result.

But, it was just very frustrating to come and lay out planting beds with plants and find that the beds were not in the right places....! Thus, I had beds that were the wrong shape and size for the plants I had already purchased. Areas like the firepit space was this weird irregular shape and size and in the drawing it was a nice orderly circle. My design that was tidy and had orderly lines then became a more informal and organic. Really a different look....can I use it for my portfolio? No.

I have also had past experiences where I showed up to check up on a job I had designed that was being installed, and one of the pathways was 6 FEET OFF in a relatively small space(OK...that will cause a huge problem!). Come to find out, he just basically glanced at the plan and then "winged it". I had to step in and redo the basic layout, measuring as he should have.

I am interested in ensuring that this does not happen. As installers, is there dialog or protocol that you as an installer appreciate coming from the designer? If there is lots of detailed information recorded on the plan, efficient to install it as shown, I feel that it is not the contractor's place to offer other options that fit his needs better.

The client's satisfaction is what counts, but I want the changes to happen in my presence or with my knowledge. I want to be able to have the opportunity to defend my choice of materials/or procedure....I may have did what I did for a reason. Really, I would feel very OK about an installer that had a great alternative to something call me up and ask me about it. To me it is not OK to lay gravel right up against soil with a small thin piece of flagstone just floating on the top....there needs to be a divider to keep the camps separate.

This to me is good forethought, which is what my clients hire me for.

Thanks

Karla

[agla]

The thing that I find interesting in how you are doing this is that you already bought the plants, if I'm reading that right.

The reason that that strikes me is that there is a good portion of the job profit in the sale of materials. That is a nice way to add to your income if you can get it as a designer who is not Project Manager (general contractor).

Where I am and other places where I have worked, it would be hard to turn this job over to a good landscape contractor because he can not make the profit on the markup of the plants (not to mention the responsibility of warranty). I don't know why it would be different in Oregon. That could be limiting your ability to get good landscape contractors to do your jobs.

A contractor can only produce so much. That means whatever job he takes displaces another potential job. If the profit on a potential job is limited (no plant mark up), the contractor won't give up a different job where all of the income potential is there.

It is likely that you have created a situation where you are limited to lower level contractors or those that feel the only way to make the job profitable is to cut corners simply because a chunk of the money is missing.

Getting mark up profit is a good goal, but until you have a clientel that wants you enough to add that to the bottom line of the job, it means that someone else (contractor) is paying for it out of the bottom line of his job.

The bottomline is that the contractor has to be one who is willing to work cheaper. They only ones who do that are ones that can not get work that pays more due to being unestablished, inexperienced, or incompetent.

[Stonehenge]

I think what may be part of the problem is the expectation that once the contractor is involved, he keep you in the loop. In this arrangement, it doesn't appear there is any obligation for the contractor to do so - so it is now the contractor's prerogative to a) make the customer happy and b) make money, without regard for your wishes.

I'm surprised a contractor would move a walk 6' in one direction - if I'm following plans, I'm following plans and don't deviate by more than a few inches. Maybe that contractor should not have any further work referred to him, as a bad referral reflects poorly on the referrer, too.

I'm not sure how you fix the client wanting changes. They are bankrolling the project, so they have the legitimate expectation of getting things done the way they'd like.

I'm curious - if you are subbing out the work, why are you buying the plants? Shouldn't that also be someone else's job? Or are you doing the plantings after the hardscape/earth work is done?

From the sound of it, I think what's needed is for you to more clearly define what roles you wish to play (and which ones make logistical and monetary sense for you to play), then organize your business around those roles, setting up systems so that you get the results you're hoping for.

Set yourself up as a GC, or sell the designs and wash your hands of it once the money changes hands. It sounds like this middle ground isn't working the way you're expecting it to. Part is probably the contractor's fault, part is yours.

[secondnature]

Thanks for the input!!

Great opinions and questions. That is what makes this forum so great.

I started providing plant material in the beginning, and works well if I am working with do it yourself homeowners. Most often, they are willing to hire hardscaping out and do the bed prep and planting themselves. They get healthy plant material provided to their home by me so they can get moving w/o the hassle.

In Oregon, I am not allowed to install plant material, as I am not licensed to do so. I do place a clause that when the plants arrive to the jobsite that I am no longer liable for them, the client is. I will assist in problem solving if needed.

I have worked with installers who are happy to have me get the plants as it is one thing they do not have to do with the job, and I lay the plants out for the install. But I do see what you are saying about my providing plants takes away their $$ making avenue. Maybe I should rethink my policy on that.

Maybe instead of counting on makind additional income thru plant sales I should focus more on being hired to be a liason bwtn client and installer, and doing plant placement.

And, maybe I need to let go a little on the design. I guess when you spend energy creating something it is easy to get attached to it and you want to see it come to fruition in real time! If the client wants flagstone instead of pavers in the end, well then by gosh they are who needs to be happy. I can see that if I am allowed to spend time initially with the bidders for the job, do my best to convey my vision, making sure there is also printed material either on the plan itself or in a packet included, to back up the details that I feel are important. If the client is interested, I can be available for an hourly fee to oversee on a regular basis during the install.
I was talking to an installer the other day, and he works for a higher end designer in my area who is so involved with the install that the client and the installer really don not interface much at all. This designer actually does do the general layout, using markers to lay out pathways, beds, walls, patios, etc. so that it is clear to the installer and just the way he wants it.

Thanks

Karla

[secondnature]

It is pretty common to hear of designers that provide this service for their clients, at least around here. I even know of a designer who has a small retail nursery based at an urban retail bamboo nursery and she carries the plant material that she uses frequently so that she can provide it for the designs she does. She can then purchase the plants WH and have them yarded (while for sale retail) and ready to supply her jobs.

I will not continue to refer a contractor that cannot get a measuring tape out and lay out the design properly. I was quite amazed...if I had not shown up, it would have been so way off, and would have been a problem.

When providing plant material for the job, I am completely relying on the contractor hired to follow the dimensions on the plan. This last job, my plan was not followed and so then when I ordered plants based on my design, the planting spaces were so different that the plants would not work in some of them. Then, I end up being the problem solver, losing money with having to take the time to remedy the problem. So, yes maybe I need to be more selective on the jobs I will supply plants for, and be willing to let it go on the jobs where the client is hriing out the work, and save it for the do it yourselfers. Thank you much!!

Originally posted by Stonehenge
I think what may be part of the problem is the expectation that once the contractor is involved, he keep you in the loop. In this arrangement, it doesn't appear there is any obligation for the contractor to do so - so it is now the contractor's prerogative to a) make the customer happy and b) make money, without regard for your wishes.

I'm surprised a contractor would move a walk 6' in one direction - if I'm following plans, I'm following plans and don't deviate by more than a few inches. Maybe that contractor should not have any further work referred to him, as a bad referral reflects poorly on the referrer, too.

I'm not sure how you fix the client wanting changes. They are bankrolling the project, so they have the legitimate expectation of getting things done the way they'd like.

I'm curious - if you are subbing out the work, why are you buying the plants? Shouldn't that also be someone else's job? Or are you doing the plantings after the hardscape/earth work is done?

From the sound of it, I think what's needed is for you to more clearly define what roles you wish to play (and which ones make logistical and monetary sense for you to play), then organize your business around those roles, setting up systems so that you get the results you're hoping for.

Set yourself up as a GC, or sell the designs and wash your hands of it once the money changes hands. It sounds like this middle ground isn't working the way you're expecting it to. Part is probably the contractor's fault, part is yours.

[secondnature]

One other question....when you are reading a plan, do you prefer that there are actual dimensions printed on the elements you are laying out, or are you willing to whip out a ruler and follow a noted scale? My CAD program will do dimensioning, but of course it adds alot of additional printing and labeling to an already full drawing...can make it a bit congested. I have the ability to also make a separate hardscaping layout with its own set of labels and dimensions, then provide a secondary planting plan with plants only.

It is my understanding that as an unlicensed designer, I cannot do actual specs on a drawing....like I cannot spec out lumber dimensions on a pergola I have created on the plan. How do the designers that you work with convey these types of details to you as the builder?

Originally posted by secondnature
It is pretty common to hear of designers that provide this service for their clients, at least around here. I even know of a designer who has a small retail nursery based at an urban retail bamboo nursery and she carries the plant material that she uses frequently so that she can provide it for the designs she does. She can then purchase the plants WH and have them yarded (while for sale retail) and ready to supply her jobs.

I will not continue to refer a contractor that cannot get a measuring tape out and lay out the design properly. I was quite amazed...if I had not shown up, it would have been so way off, and would have been a problem.

When providing plant material for the job, I am completely relying on the contractor hired to follow the dimensions on the plan. This last job, my plan was not followed and so then when I ordered plants based on my design, the planting spaces were so different that the plants would not work in some of them. Then, I end up being the problem solver, losing money with having to take the time to remedy the problem. So, yes maybe I need to be more selective on the jobs I will supply plants for, and be willing to let it go on the jobs where the client is hriing out the work, and save it for the do it yourselfers. Thank you much!!

[Stonehenge]

Well, in Wisconsin I do the design and the construction - but I never put measurement notations on the drawing (the client's copy will usually have some measurements on it), as I also think it ads clutter. I design almost always in architect scales (not engineer scales), so a tape measure works just fine for transferring measurements to the site.

That being said, using another party's design, I would probably like dimensions, as I've used plans where the scale listed on the drawing was not correct (either that or we were supposed to plant trees in the middle of busy streets)

[secondnature]

Stonehenge,

I normally produce my drawings in architectural scale and note it somewhere on the plan. My Dynascape program will automatically set to whatever scale I choose. I had thought this would be sufficient so that an installer could read the plan and set it up accordingly, using a tape measure. I am wondering if I should start doing two sheets....one for dimensioning the hardscaping and the layout of beds, pathways, patios, arbors, etc. and then a second sheet that would show all those components but only show and label the plant materials. Maybe not too cluttery.

I think that I will work on being VERY CLEAR with my vision to the best of my ability. This includes good communication on my plan itself (showing arrow to arrow dimensions, good notes, photos if needed to show) and also in verbal communication to my client and installers (by arranging meetings to describe details, answer questions on site, etc.).

Then, unless my client wants to have the extra assistance by the hour during install, then just "let it go". I am thinking very stongly about NOT continuing to do the plant purchasing, especially if I am not involved in the project all along, to make sure all stays true. This will keep the plant viability and responsibility in the hands of the person providing and installing them, along with stopping my layout headaches when the plan is not layed out as I had originally designed. It has cost me lots of wasted time to have to reorrganize the beds, adjusting the plants due to the changed bed sizes. I should have arranged to redesign for pay rather than just taking it on and trying to fix it.

Thanks All,

Originally posted by Stonehenge
Well, in Wisconsin I do the design and the construction - but I never put measurement notations on the drawing (the client's copy will usually have some measurements on it), as I also think it ads clutter. I design almost always in architect scales (not engineer scales), so a tape measure works just fine for transferring measurements to the site.

That being said, using another party's design, I would probably like dimensions, as I've used plans where the scale listed on the drawing was not correct (either that or we were supposed to plant trees in the middle of busy streets)