[scaper27]

My camera is a Canon Powershot A630. It is 8 Mega-Pixels and it has been an awesome camera

[dandyliondancer]

I’ve been reading all the forums on design software, and compiling a list of all the programs discussed, with their prices, main features, and good and bad points as discussed by the users. I think it would be very handy to have this information compiled in one place for new readers (and old) to be able to compare all the packages in one glance. i would be happy to share my synopsis so far, and note the trends i see, but first i have a few blanks to fill in as well as a few questions, such as

1. what is up with vendors that dont post any information on their websites besides an email address??! some vendors (eg. dynascapes) go out of their way to make a nice web presentation, but with about half of the programs out there i cant even find accurate pricing information. do i have to email or call the vendor just to find out how much the program is and see some samples?? is this their marketing strategy, that anyone who is interested will already have heard of their product from somewhere else, and they want to get my personal information before i get theirs? specifically i’m looking for pricing information on LandCADD, KeySCAPE, Landscape Illustrator, and Artisan. if you have this info could you pass it along?

2. i also read about a program called Site Designer II by Eaglepoint, which sounded promising, but i dont know if they are still selling it, or ever did. any info?

3. i need to clarify an important point. i am under the impression that you need to own the full AutoCAD program to run the add-ons. These include LandCADD, LandFX, Landscape Illustrator, and KeySCAPE. I read a comment by Agla which suggested that this was not the case, that these programs came equiped with some version of AutoCAD. This is a huge point. Can someone clarify it for me?

4. lastly, is it worth considering buying an older version of AutoCAD for a reduced price (actually these seem pretty hard to come by – 1 vendor for 2005 on Amazon) or is it best to just go for the newest version. someone also asked the question which never got answered: if you are just doing 2D work is there any benefit to using AutoCAD over AutoCAD LT?

Thanks for your help, and I will try to post the summary soon.

[agla]

All of what I am about to write is based on some experience and some memory. I don't mean to state any of the following as fact. It is just to the best of my knowlege and recollection (Maybe I can run for senate in NY).

Eaglepoint is the maker of Landcadd and Sitedesigner II was the landscape module for it that ran as a stand alone or as an add on to Acad.

I believe that they no longer call it Site Desiger II, but have split their Landcadd program into several modules. Any of the modules can be run as an add on to the full version of ACAD (acad lt does not run add ons). Eaglepoint uses a clone of autocad called Intellicad as its cad engine in the stand alone application.

By separating the modules, it offers each person the chance to buy only what they need (and to sell more products).

You can buy Intellicad from any number of software companies if you just want a full autocad clone. Some are only three or four hundred bucks (not custom to landscape).You might see logos on some cad software websites that says "powered by intellicad" or something like that. These are all running off of that original Intellicad program and have licenses to alter it, and customize it, and resell it.

Intellicad uses the "dwg" file format that is the same as autocad.

[papercutter]

If you're going to do AutoCAD, I'd say just do a single-seat license for the newest version. Autodesk doesn't support versions past a certain point, which has been a pain (I'm still using 2002 LT). I did the demo of 2007 a few months ago, and I have to say- when I buy my new desktop, I'm buying 2008 LT. Since my version, they've added some subtle but REALLY nice touches that improve the drafting workflow.

Using LT, there's really been nothing I want to do that I can't.

[agla]

I use Autocad 2007 Land Desktop in the engineering office. I use Acad LT 2004 in the LA office. I have used Acad LT 2005 in another office in the recent past. I've used Site Designer II several years ago in an LA office. I used Eaglepoint Landscape Design stand alone (wirh quantity take off, plant database, and the rendering module).

My preference for landscape plans is Acad LT. Part of that is that I have a very well developed Acad skill set from working in several offices, especially engineering offices where we had no choice but to work within and around cad files by others. Part of it is that it is reasonably affordable (~$850). Part of it is that I need to be able to get and open current cad files from surveyors, engineers, and architects. Another part is that I have a well developed symbol and block library that i have built over the years and do not need the add ons.

I think papercutter would agree with me that once you have a handle on things like plant symbols and line weights, the add on routines slow you down.

Since Acad LT 2004, there is a "tool pallet" that you can very quickly access where you can drag symbols and blocks into your drawing. I have 140 plant symbols on mine as well as a whole lot of other blocks that I use (cobble stones, stepping stones, catch basins, dumpsters,...). The best thing is that you can take blocks out of other drawings without even opening the drawing and drag them onto your pallet.

This is a very deep and complicated program. It is probably not the best thing to start with because it does not have those helpful add ons that really shorten your learning curve.

I think Dynascape is a really good place to start as it starts you off with tools set up to give you a better looking landscape plan before you develop your own cad skills. Programs like this allow you to get going and put out a good product with a minimal skill set. In time, it is likely that you would experiment more with basic cad skills and find more efficient ways to bypass the add on modules. Then it makes sense that a strait cad program might be a better option.

I don't find a lot of value in quantity take off programs or modules within programs. I see a lot of potential for errors. I also like to check off my plant quantities with a red pen on a hard copy. It really takes very little time and makes me look at the plan very closely and I find unrelated errors at that time. All you do is check off one plant symbol at a time, it is very quick.

Most any cad program will give you areas of closed linework. Acad now lets you get areas from hatching (like a patio pattern). It is also very quick. The same thing is true with line lengths. Quantities are pretty quick and easy without paying extra.

I really think that you have to balance your own current skill sets, the product you want to put out, the cost, and whether you need to exchange files with other professionals or not.
I have not had a close look at ProLandscape, but it seems to be the most popular with design/build contractors who work totally in house. My guess is that it has a lot of user friendly add ons like Dynascape. Another reason might have more to do with the photoediting software than anything else.

You need the right tool for the job and for the operator.

[oakleaf]

Working now with newly acquired LANDCADD so can answer a couple of questions for you.
In short - reasonably pleased with what it provides. Some areas are good timesavers, such as its ability to integrate with Autocad and keep track of the plant insertions to enable the production of a quantified key in seconds. Plant database is reasonably good, reasonably full and enables you to link symbols with the extra info that it contains as you would expect from such an add-on. Others are no real advantage - such as blocks/details insertions. Most manufacturers have loads on the net and if you have a few trees of your own and know how to work with blocks in Autocad there is no real gain.
I am currently battling with the irrigation module which is not exactly user friendly but I can see the gains to be had if I can get it all working the way I want... the manual they provide is just dire.
Pricing for each module as of 11/19/07:
Base Plan $625
Construction details $625
Irrigation design $1125
Landscape design $625
Plant database $325
Quantity takeoff $325

Set me back in all $3750.. still deciding if it was totally worth it. Will let you know when I have hammered out all my issues with the software.
Two big regrets - quantity takeoff is just not worth it - its better to do by hand - less errors and a good double check to the plan as has been previously stated...
The second is that the landscape design software does not allow the merging of the symbols into each other as I have see achieved by other packs, notably dynascape and land f/x. I thought, and was looking forward to using this - as in our opinion this is important to the the aesthetic of a design.. We have created a workaround but its not pretty. It is apparently on the eaglepoint "client wishlist".

I'd be happy to post a design we have done with it if it would be of interest. (I only have a couple so far as we have only just received it!)

[papercutter]

Well, I'm always up for seeing other peoples' work- I'd love to see the completed design.

AGLA makes a good point with the symbols and blocks you can add to over time; don't forget hatch patterns, either. I have hatch patterns loaded on my machine from Unilock, Techo-Bloc, and Cultured Stone, to name a few. These and some rudimentary drafting ability are all you need to accurately represent, say, an I-pattern paver patio with a 6x9 soldier course border. I'll be the first to admit I'm a little fussy about accuracy, so I love it.

To a certain extent, I think it's worth the up-front investment of time to start with the software you want to end up with. Part of what really turned me off of Dynascape was that I'm so fast in AutoCAD that when I was trying to learn Dynascape, it felt clunky and counter-intuitive to me. I would think that if you learned on that with the intent of moving to AutoCAD, you'd feel the same way about AutoCAD when you got to that point. Maybe, maybe not.

It all comes down to personal style. For me, AutoCAD allows me to express myself with the output, and how I draft and add to it. Something with a push-button finished plan engine, like Dynascape, allows you to step into their programmers' style. Kind of like in the "olden days"- some designers drew all their plants and hatches by hand, and some used rub-on symbols and other aids. At the end of the day, I recognize that it's really all about the installed job and not how it looks on paper; some of us just geek out a little more about that step

[Inspired]

Originally posted by papercutter
To a certain extent, I think it's worth the up-front investment of time to start with the software you want to end up with. Part of what really turned me off of Dynascape was that I'm so fast in AutoCAD that when I was trying to learn Dynascape, it felt clunky and counter-intuitive to me. I would think that if you learned on that with the intent of moving to AutoCAD, you'd feel the same way about AutoCAD when you got to that point. Maybe, maybe not.

I agree 100% with Dave here.

That is exactly where I was when I first began with AutoCAD. I was very familiar with Dynascape. I had been using it for two years or so before I realized I really needed AutoCAD. Dynascape and AutoCAD are just different enough to make the transition frustrating. And unfortunately by the time you realize you need to make the transition to AutoCAD, you may not have the time to dedicate to getting fast. You will be busy. I would love to sit down and practice with AutoCAD. I see very clearly that designing with AutoCAD will be faster and easier for me. However, I’m very busy right now, so I revert back to Dynascape because I know it very well.

If you are a designer only, my advice is to learn AutoCAD from the beginning. Don't put it off. You will have to have it and learn it eventually.

If you need to begin on the cheap, buy AutoCAD LT, use the money you will save to enroll in an AutoCAD class right away. Many Autodesk resellers provide training classes that move along pretty quick (you could be up and designing in a month or two max, depending on when they begin). Many Community Colleges provide AutoCAD classes at a much less expensive cost, but it takes much longer to begin and complete them (4-6 months depending on when they begin).

In defense of Dynascape. It’s a very good program for small to medium sized design/build contractors (average sized homes, tract homes, etc) where you and your customers and maybe a couple of familiar subs are the only ones to see the drawing. You can produce very attractive designs that customers will appreciate. I has a good tutorial that will get you up and drawing very quickly. The problems you will run into begin when you get into larger more complicated work that requires permits, construction details and especially collaboration with other people (Architects, Engineers, Surveyors and other Designers or Landscape Architects. Not to mention printers and blueprinters). All these people, including the city and county your customer resides in, will be using some form of AutoCAD.

Also if you want accurately scaled drawings, you will need to buy your own printer or plotter. None of the print houses or blueprinters here use Dynascape and Kinkos will skew the drawing enough to frustrate anyone trying to install from it.

Hope that helps you,
Bill

[dandyliondancer]

AutoCAD

AutoCAD Full
2005 $2500 www.Amazon.com
2007 $4000 www.Shopping.com
2008 $3800 www.Buypcsoft.com
2008 Student Version $356 www.StudentDiscounts.com

AutoCAD LT
2008 $770 www.Buy.com
2007/2008 Student Version $138 www.StudentDiscounts.com


AutoCAD Platform Based (not LT)

LandFX (AutoCAD based)
$1700 www.LandFX.com
* friendly website with videos and gallery, free trial offered
* extensive plant database – customizable library and symbols
* easy toggle from CAD to 3D SketchUp view – nice for visualizing 3D
* produces fairly nice looking 2D CAD presentations (B&W only) – still some room for improvement
* no dedicated estimating software – exports softscape/hardscape take-off to Excel instead

KeySCAPE (AutoCAD based)
$3925 http://www.keyscape.co.uk/Products/S...lications.html
* UK based organization – no local courses/reps
* 60 design-hour free trial (will not print)
* decent 2D plans have a “bare bones” and more technical look/feel than Dynascape and LandCADD and color rendering also lags behind
* private link, posted with permission: http://www.keyscape.co.uk/samples/samples.html
* 2D, 3D, no photo-imaging

Landscape Illustrator (LSI) (AutoCAD based)
$700 ($820 with 1 year support) http://www.lsisoft.com/product.html
* website has a lot of dead links and errors (just makes me wonder . . . ), 30 day trial ($25)
* seems to make a decent 2D CAD plan – photorealistic option (a bit cheesy IMO)
* Photo-imaging capabilities, no dedicated estimating component

LandCADD (AutoCAD based) (Eaglepoint software)
about $2850 plus or minus – see below http://www.eaglepoint.com/solutions/...pe/default.htm
examples: http://www.turuncu.com.tr/ep-landcadd.html
* industry standard for many years, now sold in separate modules
* produces good, solid 2D presentations, good quality color rendering
* 3D options available, no photo-imaging
* runs with AutoCAD or BricsCAD ($290)
* most relevant modules: base plan ($625), landscape design ($625), plant database ($325), quantity takeoff ($325), construction detail ($625), colorfast ($325) --- total price: $2850
* other modules: site analysis ($325), site design ($625), site planning ($625), irrigation design ($1125)

CS Artisan (AutoCAD based)
$4100 http://www.csartisan.biz/ and http://cs-design.com/ARTISANSL%20PRODUCT.htm
* UK based company, no local classes/reps, not much info on website
* 2D is solid, but technical looking (i have a pdf file - email if you want to see it)
* 2D, 3D with walkthrough capability, customisable plant database, take-offs, estimations, no photo-imaging

Dynascape for AutoCAD (see notes below)
same price as stand-alone???


STAND ALONE PLATFORMS – programs emphasizing 2D CAD

Dynascape (stand alone)
Design and Quote only ($2500) + Color 1.0 ($695) = Total $3200
www.GardenGraphics.com
* very nice online preview, good tech support, more expensive than some other programs in this category
* preset line weights, line styles, opacities and blended coloring create a very nice looking 2D CAD presentation
* extensive plant database, customizable library and symbols
* easy to add plant pics from library - very thorough estimation program
* no 3D view, no photo-imaging component
* free 45 day trial

CS Artisan SL (stand-alone – created/runs with OEM AutoCAD 2006 code – 100% .DWG compatible)
$5100 - (see notes above) http://cs-design.com/ARTISANSL%20PRODUCT.htm
* sold in modules as CS Garden Designer

VectorWorks LANDMARK by Nemetschek Software (stand-alone)
$1600 without Renderworks
$2000 with Renderworks www.nemetschek.net online portfolio
* A complete CAD system and specialized landscape module, like AutoCAD + LandCADD
* steep learning curve
* it is NOT AutoCAD, so swapping files with AutoCAD might be problematic
* produces some nice looking presentations, strong 3D capabilities
* plant placement tool/library is overly complicated and not intuitive (a major negative IMO)
* good option for MAC users

LandCADD
LandCADD used to run as a stand-alone equipped with IntelliCAD, but now only runs with AutoCAD or BricsCAD ($290), or several others that must be purchased separately.

KeySCAPE LT Pro
* $4550 - powered by an OEM version of AutoCAD
* 2D only – (see notes above)

STAND ALONE PLATFORMS – programs emphasizing Photo-realistic Editing

Pro Landscape by Drafix software (stand alone)
$1400 www.ProLandscape.com
* integrates a photo-imaging designer with a mediocre 2D CAD presentation, and a fairly robust estimating program – good tech support – no free trial

Earthscapes by Visual Impact Imaging (Corel based – stand alone)
$1100 from www.VisualImpactImaging.com
* integrates a photo-imaging designer with a mediocre 2D CAD presentation, and a basic estimating program

DesignWare
$700 www.DesignWare33.com
* photo-realistic designer only with no 2D CAD capabilities and no estimator capabilities

[dandyliondancer]

here is the software summary i promised earlier. i want to state up front that i haven’t used much of this software, so i am basing my impressions on information gathered from the websites, from the web, from the reps, and from forum members here. if you are a user of the software and you think that i mis-represented any aspect of it, please write in and i will edit the post to make it as accurate as possible.

from reading the forums, it seems like there are 4 main types of users, so that is how i tried to break down the software.

first there is the designer who relies on AutoCAD to do all drafting, and then uses a separate program like Excel or whatever to calculate an estimate. the main benefit to this approach is that using AutoCAD is actually more efficient than the add-ons once a user has achieved a high level of expertise. the downside is that there is a huge learning curve in learning AutoCAD. this option actually gives the user the most control over the final look of the design. this also gives the benefit of being able to swap .DWG files with other AutoCAD users (Architects, Engineers, Builders, Inspectors, etc.) without fear of loosing important data. AutoCAD LT is a reasonably priced option for making 2D CAD drawings. Deegola was nice enough to give us a link to some of his own AutoCAD designs and show us what is possible (http://www.djdelten.com).

the second category of programs run as add-ons to AutoCAD, automating many of the tasks that one would normally go through in making a CAD plan. they all come with some sort of plant and symbol library, and some include software to help with making estimates. the benefits are that one can start doing designs with less time invested in training, and at the same time can import and export designs to other CAD users without worry. the downside is that buying this software on top of buying AutoCAD is an expensive proposition. LandCADD is the most well know program in this category and has been around for many years, and is a solid option. From the examples i have seen, DynaSCAPE for AutoCAD makes the best looking plans, and also includes a program for estimating costs. I also like LandFX. I personally wouldn’t mind having the data exported to Excel, and setting up my own estimating formulas. I would like to see them upgrade their graphics to the level of DynaSCAPE, but the price is right. Likewise Landscape Illustrator is the most inexpensive in the category, and has had a few positive reviews in this forum. KeySCAPES and Artisan are both based in the UK, and are dark horses in this race as far as i am concerned. Obviously small and mid level designers aren’t their main target audience and there isn’t a lot of information on the web. They wouldn’t be my first choice, but might be worth looking at if you are in the market.

the next category of software is packages that are self-contained and run without AutoCAD. the main benefit here is cost saved from not buying AutoCAD, as well as the ability to get up and running fast without as much time spent in training, and the main down-side is unreliability in sharing files with other professional users. there have also been some reported issues with blueprint houses not printing the drawings to scale. but for small or mid size companies that do exclusively in-house design and build, this is a totally reasonable option. some of the packages include software for detailed cost estimates, and other don’t. this is more a matter of personal preference and needs. DynaSCAPE has had a strong presence in this forum and has been very receptive to the needs of small and mid sized design build firms. Their package produces the nicest looking 2D plans, in my opinion, and also includes software for cost estimates, and so would be my first choice here. I tried VectorWorks, and the plant placement tool was so backward to me that i wouldn’t recommend their package for this reason alone, but others seem to like it.

the last category of software is similar, but incorporates a photo-editing (“pseudo-3D”) capability. there seems to be a substantial group of designers in the forum that use the photo-editing as their main sales tool, and feel that they are able to sell their plan by virtue of making it easy for clients to visualize. ProLandscapes and Earthscapes are also able to do a quantity take-off and cost estimate from the photo-edited design. besides the issues of this possibly not being a realistic portrayl of the design, which i am going to side-step, the main downside here is that in order to generate a scaled 2D CAD presentation, all the information needs to be entered a second time into the CAD portion of the program. the other downside is that the quality of the 2D CAD of these programs is inferior to most of the previously mentioned programs. but if you are just using a CAD drawing for installation, or if you don’t even need a CAD drawing to do the install, and make successful sales off of the photo-rendering, then this might be the package for you. there are many very cheap programs ($20 to $100) that do photo-editing just as well as these. the main benefit mentioned of these programs was their ability to generate a take-off and quote from a photo-edited design, hence saving a lot of time. ProLandscapes seems to be the most popular and recommended in this category. If you want to have a real quality 2D CAD plan with a quantity takeoff and cost estimate as well as a photo-realistic presentation, then i might suggest using Dynascape along with one of the cheaper photo-editing packages. In any case, if you want a 2D CAD and a photo-edited plan, you are going to have to enter the data twice whatever package or combination you are using.

last note: i’m not touching on the realistic 3D design programs, because there is enough info here already, and because it is not something that most people are going to use on a regular basis.

i was also wondering if it would be more handy to post this as a new thread or if it fits here . . . mod can move it if he wants . . .

[agla]

That is a very nicely put together over view and it took a lot of effort. Thanks for sharing it.

I don't see anything in there that I would argue with.

[chrissygardensc]

I have been using Designware for since 1999. I get along with it just find, it had great picture and I used most my own and made my pic real life like. When I bought Designware, it came with additional software, like plan scape (birds eye drawing that I use and like too), night lighting and with Design Quote for doing estimates, inventory and billing. The Quote software I nerver did get up and going and teh company took it off the market. Originally, I wanted to buy software from a company to grow with but Design Ware Company let me down . Now I am also looking into other software that includes a estimator / invoicing, digital/visual drawing and to be able to draw a plan. What software programs are there that can do this all like I had but better???

[papercutter]

The only thing I'd question is you mention "Dynascape for AutoCAD"- is there a plug-in now? I haven't looked at Dynascape in months, so I have no idea.

All in all, VERY comprehensive overview, and much more objective than I'm capable of being.

Dave

[DynaSCAPEr]

Originally posted by Inspired
Also if you want accurately scaled drawings, you will need to buy your own printer or plotter. None of the print houses or blueprinters here use Dynascape and Kinkos will skew the drawing enough to frustrate anyone trying to install from it.

Hope that helps you,
Bill [/b]

Hi Bill,

Just thought I'd chime in to let you know that we've fixed the scaling issues, and our next product update(due soon!) includes the ability to save drawings as Adobe PDF documents, which will make the print shop experience virtually hassle free.

At any rate, fantastic information - love this discussion. If anyone has any questions, I'll answer them, as always.

Best regards,

Fred

[agla]

Side note:

Anyone can save anything to pdf right now no matter what program you are using. There are a ton of free download pdf drivers that act just like a print driver. Instead of printing out a hard copy, it makes a pdf file.

cutewriter, pdf995, primopdf... these are some (might have the names a little tweaked, but you'll find them). The best thing about "printing" to pdf is that you can print out reductions of big plans and the lineweights scale down as well (not like printing directly to small sheets).