[RottieMommy]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum but since it has to do with Landscape Design...I'll stick it here.

I usually have a good waiting list of about 2 - 4 months at any given point of the year (winter included). How many of you guys have a waiting list as well and how do your clients deal with it? I don't make any apologizes for my waiting list anymore...it's a good thing in my eyes. It is great for me and good for the clients too...I tell them they would rather have a designer with people who are willing to wait for them instead of someone who can jump at the design (meaning they don't have a lot of work for whatever reason). People who aren't into waiting don't and continue their search for a designer which is fine by me.

But, sometimes (as in today) I had a landscaper call me who I do some work for with a "Crazy client who has a lot of money and a big job" He's all fired up about this project from the tone of his voice on the phone. But, apparently he walked off the job three times in the pastdue to her craziness....great. I told him very quickly that I can't get to something like this right now and I have several projects I'm working on right now that need my attention right now. I don't think he wanted to hear it...it sounds like she's not going to hear it either. He's pushing me to call her and be star struck at how much cash this is and how big it is...which I really am not going to be. I'm beyond being star struck over huge jobs...jobs are jobs no matter how big they are. I'm sticking to my guns on this one and if she can't wait for me to get to her design then tough. I'm not killing myself so I can keep my current projects on schedule and to make a crazy woman happy too (which sounds like it's a feat into itself). I told said landscaper that I am at a point in my career where I'm firm about the waiting list and I can't take on a big quick and deadly design where they are never quick and deadly. I took on one like that last year and it was truly the job from hell. Once bitten; five hundred times shy. I kind of have a bad feeling about this whole project...I know I should listen to my woman's intution.

I called her right after I got off the phone with the landscaper and she was supposedly expecting my call. She had someone at the house and couldn't talk at the moment and I'm waiting for a call back.

Am I being unreasonable for being tough with the waiting list? (I think I know the answer to that)...but this would bury me. Plus, I don't have the time or the energy to deal with a big project with equally big Drama. I might irk this landscaper who I am developing a relationship with but I need to draw boundaries early. I think it's worth it.

[Stonehenge]

One of the things I've tried to learn to do with scheduled clients and work is to be as vague about scheduling as I can - this sometimes will allow me the latitude to plug in a project on a tight deadline (and high margin) if the need arises.

But the diva clients are not ones to cram into a schedule - you know that the project will take 3X as long as it should and there will be changes galore. If you can put a leash on this client quickly and get her to your way of thinking and schedule, you might be OK. Just get lots of money up front.

[RottieMommy]

I'm finding that clients aren't letting me get away with being vague...they want to know how long they will be waiting.

This is how I have worded my contract as being as vague as I can get away with:

I will begin work as soon as possible upon receipt of the signed contract. I do have a client waiting list. Based on my current landscape design projects, the wait for commencing work is about 2 - 3 months. This waiting period is subject to change due to the outstanding proposals I have with other potential clients and the dates of their acceptances.

People see a number and they hold you to that even though there's an "about" and "subject to change" in there. I had an "approximate" in there as well but the about made that redundant. If you have any suggestions about the wording to make it more vague, I'm all ears.

The crazy client still hasn't called back...

[RottieMommy]

Well, here's the update...I talked with her. She was thinking water gardens, patios, relocating a ton of existing stuff to make more for an addition and a deck that haven't been started yet...this was more than just a quickie design adn a complete overhaul of their large backyard. It has to be done yesterday too.

I was right and she didn't want to hear that I am not taking on any large projects right now that have urgency to them. I told her I couldn't do it now due to the work load of current designs right now and that it wasn't fair to her, my current clients and myself to try to eek in her design and maintain the schedule I have for my current work. I also told her that I would be more than happy to work on the design if she was willing to wait for me to get to her. I could hear the crazy starting to bubble up in the conversation...she's someone who is used to someone saying how high when she orders jump. This started to feel eeriely familiar to another job I talked about in the "red flags" thread on here. No....just no. I need someone like that this summer like a hole in the head.

She asked for the landscaper's number who referred me so she could call him and figure out what they are going to do now. I gave it some time and left a message with him too explaining that I told her I couldn't get to it now and I didn't feel comfortable with the push on the project and our conversation. I apologized to him that I couldn't help him out more but that scope was a little bigger than I felt I could devote all of my time to at the moment. So...if he's upset, he's upset. Oh well...I'm not going to sacrifice my sanity and my clients for a nutso diva.

**ahhhhhhh....purging bad thoughts**

[Stonehenge]

Re: scheduling, if being vague doesn't work, then lie. When a restaurant tells you it'll be a 20 minute wait and it's only 15, you're usually going to be happy. But tell you it's going to be 10 and it turns out to be 15 - then not so much.

Another thought - if she's really, really on a tight deadline and really, really wants your work - tell her that to get it done you're going to have to tick off a lot of other customers and pay your people lots of overtime - this is going to mean many thousands of dollars over what it would cost if you were willing to wait - just to make it worth your while.

And make it a wild amount of money - she'll either get bowled over by the price and walk, or she'll bite, and you'll get compensated for the crazy you're about to live through.

We did that for a GC who was building model homes - he needed us to do some work on 5 homes on a rush basis - then he took two of them away to give to someone else. A week later he wanted to give them back. I said "Sure - but it's gonna cost you 30% more now." That was both an OT and a pride upcharge. They declined.

Based on your last posts, that'll all have to be consideration for next time.

[agla]

You are second guessing yourself or you would not be going through the excercise of this discussion. Do you believe everything you wrote above? I think you do. My guess is that you are more concerned about the sane client, the landscaper, rather than the nut. You probably don't want to let him down, but if you are out straight, what can you do?

If the landscaper needs the job, he'll find a way to land it with or without you. It is also good that the landscaper feels he needs you. He values you and not having the need to jump for him will make him realize how much he values you (one way or the other).

[Inspired]

Originally posted by agla
If the landscaper needs the job, he'll find a way to land it with or without you. It is also good that the landscaper feels he needs you. He values you and not having the need to jump for him will make him realize how much he values you (one way or the other).

I wonder if your landscaper has learned the "Crazy Diva" lesson yet. If not, he may drag more crazies your way.

Just a thought.

Bill

[jwholden]

One of my top rules is NEVER call a client first. If they want you, they have to express interest in you by calling your office. If there is someone you really should call because they have a big job ask your friend to pass your business card on and have them give you a call.

Would a lawyer call and say I hear you need me?

Would a housecleaning service call and say I hear you need me?

Would a roofer call and say I hear you need me?

If any of the above did call I would think they were slow for work or cheap. Both bad scenarios in a clients eye.

[TrickyDick]

It sounds like you know what you are comfortable with and if you have a three month backlog it doesn't seem like the way you are running your business is hurting you any. And there is definately something to be said for trusting your instincts.

Just to take another angle on this though...there are certain communities where "crazy divas", or some variation there of, are not really the exception but the rule. If you have the skills and patience to deal with those folks (you are fluent in "crazy rich lady"- although plenty of them are men) it can be a very profitable niche market precisely because they are such a PITA and most people can't or don't want to deal with them. You can charge a premium for the hassle you know will deal with and make it well worth your time. That demographic makes up most of our clientel (I don't know how to spell that) and they want what they want when they want it. It IS a pain, it is a hassle and it can be really chaotic sometimes but if you can deal with it and manage to give them what they want (even when they don't know what it is) you can become extremely valuable to them.

It is just a choice you make. If I didn't have a partner fluent in "crazy rich lady" I probably wouldn't do it but it works for us.

[agla]

Servicing "Crazy Divas" (no cabana boy jokes please) can be profitable, if you want to do it. Difficult work, whether it is labor or dealing with PITAs is a market that can be exploited by people who have the right stuff and desire to do it. The question is whether it is more trouble than it is worth to you or not.

Its like a Rodeo. The meaner nastier bull gets you more money, .... if you have the nerve, skill, and experience to hold on for eight seconds. Or, you can sell fried dough, Resistols, and Copenhagen 50' away and take in a steady income and walk straight (at least on your way to the bar).

In any case, it is best that you define your services and your market whenever possible, rather than contractors or clients defining them for you.

The landscaper sees a woman who is ready to spend some money and wants to get the work. Planting, hardscaping, excavating,... according to a plan is all the same whether the check comes from a nut or not. ... as long as there is a plan. The real task with the "Crazy Diva" is to get her focused and committed to exactly what she wants to do. Bring in a designer and it becomes the designer's problem. The landscaper's tail is covered. When he follows a plan and the diva changes her mind it equals a change order with an extra charge. If the landscaper did this without the plan from a third party, it is more difficult to win any court disputes because there is less credible documentation that she was committed before changing her mind.

This is a good example of why hiring a third party as a designer is a smart business move in some cases.

If the landscaper is an experienced contractor and he is pushing to have a third party designer, I would suggest that it is for this very reason.

It is also very important to write a good contract for doing the design work as well. An hourly rate for design work is best, if there is no project management. It is a harder sell sometimes as an unknown open ended running bill can scare folks away. If you do a flat rate, you have to be clear about the number of revisions and then have an hourly rate that kicks in. That helps the client focus, so that they communicate better and make decisions in order not to have the hourly rate kick in after the contract is met. This helps move jobs along faster for the contractor as well. The contractor needs to sell materials and labor not design time. They need the designer to get the plan locked up as soon as possible.

RottieMommy,
The contractor most likely selects the jobs that he wants to do from what is offered to him and follows leads that seem good and passes on those not as good. That is his way of controlling his services and his market. It is not wrong for you to control yours.

[waterfall larry]

When I get in the situation you all are talking about, my first line of defense is to explain that I have a list of signed contracts and just as I would honor agreements that I might make with them so I have to honor agreements that I have all ready made with other customers.

Then I throw something in along the lines of the reason why I have a waiting list is that these people know me and the quality of my work and they would rather wait for me than to hire someone else and possibly get it done sooner. I am worth the wait.

Another thought to throw out might be something along the lines of "this is the busy season for most high quality landscapers and I doubt if you will find many other highly competent landscape companies who have any shorter of a waiting list".

Your goal is to persuade them to wait for you and so you could also point out that they should be cautious about a company that doesn't have a waiting list. There are a lot of small fly by night companies out there who may not have a lot of work because a lot of people didn't have enough confidence in them.

Stonehenge had a good point about charging more. The thing to do is to give as many reasons as possible for the higher price. Of course it will cost more for paying employees overtime. You want to persuade them that you have a valid reason why you would have to charge more for priority service. After all if I ship a package by UPS overnight they charge me more because priority service costs more.

It sure would be nice to have your cake and eat it too. So the thing to do may be to try to figure out how you could get the extra work done.
One possibility may be to hire more people. In Atlanta, it would be super easy to go to any one of several places and in a matter of an hour or so find 10 or more hispanic day laborers who are competent in landscaping. if you don't live in a hispanic rich day labor city, you can try temporary employment agencies.
A second possibility would be to work your present people longer hours. This may make some of them happy and may piss some of them off.
When you work people you know, there is less possibility for surprised or things to go wrong. on the other hand, if you go the day laborer route and tell the people up front that the job is temporary for a 3 week job and that you will probably bring on the hardest workers either part time or possibly full time you will give them the incentive to bust their buns for those 3 weeks and it will give you an opportunity to "test drive" 10 potential full time hires and see how good they really are before you hire them.

I would close the meeting with, "give me a week to 10 days to see if we can speed things along". I will check with our guys and see how things are going and if we can speed things up somehow.

It might be possible that we could give you a week or so to do your front yard projects and take a week of so off to finish up some other projects and then we could come back and get your back yard projects done. We could possibly do your front yard and take a week of and finish up other projects and then get your back yard projects done.

The goal is to get people to back off of their rush to get the work done demands. So the question is how many things can be done to get them to wait.
Getting some sympathy and pity points may work. Let me see if some of our guys would want to work for the next 2 Saturdays. We could get a good bit of work done with 2 Saturdays. The problem is that many of our key guys are family men and they and their wives and kids get ticked off if we cut into their weekend family time.

There are a lot worse things than having too much work.

I don't know too much about computer slang but if pita means pain in the atras , then we have 2 choices, blow them off or develop more patience and forebearance. We have a choice, we can control our emotions or let our emotions control us. We can set around and gripe and complain and work ourselves into an emotional frenzy and get ourselves all emotionally twisted up or we can develop a higher level of patience and self control.

[jwholden]

Nice post larry!

[familyguy]

I keep coming back to this and keep typing and deleting. This whole post bothers me but I can't pinpoint why exactly.

It's like this, welcome to the major league. I like aglas rodeo comparison. A lot.

We do what we do because we like it. We design if we design because we love to manipulate and create beauty. We take pain in the pedunka-dunks cuz they usually have more money and bigger sites to make our marks.

If I were in the same situation, mind you I feel like I am pretty fluent in what "Tricky" calls "crazy rich lady", I would never dismiss a potential client like that on the phone. I would at least be willing to meet them to discuss what they were looking for and what I was available to do. I have gotten referrals for work for people that I never worked for because I followed the initial call through. If I can't service them someone I know might be able to and I can give a friend a referral. It will come back. THAT IS ME THOUGH.

I just can't wrap my mind around not meeting someone who is discussing all that work. Make time. Hire a few temporary folks. I can understand skipping someone who triggered all the red flags, but, with the "crazy rich ladies" THEY ALL HAVE RED FLAGS. That is the name of the high end game.

[RottieMommy]

Thanks everyone for their input...I will write more either tonight or tomorrow when I have a few more moments. (I'm taking a little breather from the drafting table)

I think I need to bring the size of my company to light and you may see why I turned down the immediate design. It's just me...I'm the designer, the bookkeeper, the janitor, and all other things that make up my little sole proprietorship. I have no employees so there's no one to pay over time. So, if I am working on the crazy lady's project on the fly no one else's projects that I have a contract committing me to are being worked on. As for working longer hours...I'm already doing an average of 55 hours a week.

I just can't wrap my mind around not meeting someone who is discussing all that work. Make time. Hire a few temporary folks. I can understand skipping someone who triggered all the red flags, but, with the "crazy rich ladies" THEY ALL HAVE RED FLAGS. That is the name of the high end game.

For the record, I did tell her that if she was willing to wait for the design, I would be more than happy to come and meet with her now...she needed it done now. I have never and would never flat out turn someone down unless it was something illegal they wanted me to do. If you take on everything that comes your way...that's great. That's what makes your business different than mine...I honestly don't want a huge company with a crap load of employees running around. I see way too many landscaping companies packing it in or wishing to pack it all in because their companies have run away from the owners and running the owner instead of the other way around.

I do feel good about turning her down because I don't have time for someone like that if I am to make my other committment happen.

[RottieMommy]

Okay...now that's it's insanely late and I've got a few moments to discuss what has been already mentioned and some things just for discussion's sake.

You are second guessing yourself or you would not be going through the excercise of this discussion. Do you believe everything you wrote above? I think you do. My guess is that you are more concerned about the sane client, the landscaper, rather than the nut. You probably don't want to let him down, but if you are out straight, what can you do?

The post ended up being a view into my internal dialogue as this was developing with hopes of getting some input from people who are also in the industry. I had my mind made up from the first phone call from the landscaper that I couldn't at this time take on something like this.

I think some of the replies were geared more towards larger design/build firms rather than my situation of small design only one person firm. I waffle back and forth between hiring an assistant which would help me with measurements, developing base maps, putting plans into ink (yeah...I'm old school and hand draft everything...no CAD here) errands, office work, etc. The only reason I haven't done that is hiring people is a colossal PITA too at least in this state...I know some states don't require workmen's comp and all of that legalese stuff if you have less than X number of employees. Here in RI...it doesn't matter if you have 1 employee or 100, you need all of that stuff...unemployment, workman's comp, blah, blah, blah. For me, where I am now...I can't justify the expense of all of that for someone to take measurements and type up my plant lists. Sure, someday I will have to take someone on to help...like I said, someday.

Unless I had some stellar fledgling landscape designer on board would I give up the creative aspect of the business. People hire me for my ideas and designs...I think they would be miffed if they hired my company, talked to me at the initial consultation and then only have someone they haven't met or whatever actually do the design for them. For you guys who are landscapers in the true sense of the term don't have to do the actual installation...that's why you have crews and laborers. Digging a hole and planting material can be done by most anyone in your company. When someone contacts or hires me...they want me not suzie-q assistant to design up their gardens.

Someone said, welcome to the major league...I have done large projects which are major league but without all of the drama that this seemed to reek of. The red flag lady I mentioned before...she hired two different landscapers. One she owes $20,000 to and the other she owes $15,000 with a lawsuit pending because she didn't feel the work was satisfactory to her desires. I can't imagine you would be willing to take on those red flags. I was the only one who did get paid in full in that whole mess. And believe me, I too am fluent in irrational, loaded women and men...it's called kissin' butt and yesing them to death within reason. I've been there, done that, and had my share of bucking broncos in the "rodeo" of my early years of business and being a nursery manager/landscape designer for a garden center that blindly catered to the local wealthy snoots. I do this because I like it and why do a job that will make you miserable just for the money it could generate. It's that why most people bail out of the corporate world to become professional gardeners and cross over to this industry. I really don't want to have to do designs which don't make my heart and soul sing and make me mutter under my breath "Damn, I should have stuck with my original plan and gone to law school." That phrase was said a lot at the garden center. Sure, I could have told her "For $5,000 I'll do your design!" and pushed everyone aside and closed down shop for this one woman. But, I would have lied and disregarded the promise I had made to my other clients who signed contracts with me that I would finish their designs in the order their contracts were received. What sort of reputation would I build with those people?? Like Agla mentioned, I have every right to control my business as does the landscaper who told me to call this lady....he HATES designing gardens and that's why he gave her my name. So, should he had sucked it up, designed the garden and hated every minute of it?? I had mentioned this above...I didn't turn her down flat out. I told her I could take on her project in a couple of months...that wasn't going to work for her. So, that's not my problem. The landscaper is acquainted with another designer...but he likes the work I do better. Oh well...but I can have piece of mind knowing that I kept my business' integrity in tact by not getting all star struck by a large job I didn't have the man hours to take on. There's also something to be said about spreading oneself too thin and that goes over like a lead ballon with people. When I can clone myself I'll take on a project like that the minute I hear about it.

Then I throw something in along the lines of the reason why I have a waiting list is that these people know me and the quality of my work and they would rather wait for me than to hire someone else and possibly get it done sooner. I am worth the wait.

Another thought to throw out might be something along the lines of "this is the busy season for most high quality landscapers and I doubt if you will find many other highly competent landscape companies who have any shorter of a waiting list".

Your goal is to persuade them to wait for you and so you could also point out that they should be cautious about a company that doesn't have a waiting list. There are a lot of small fly by night companies out there who may not have a lot of work because a lot of people didn't have enough confidence in them.

That is almost exactly my spiel I tell all new clients including this lady which was unsuccessful. I completely agree too with I probably am not charging enough. A few clients who are financial folk have mentioned that if I have too much work, then I'm too cheap. I've been slowly raising prices and being much more realistic about how long it takes me to draft a design. I'm always testing the waters to see what the market will bear around here. I have had more people not send back the contracts than in past years so, it's working...slowly but surely.

Ugh...I have to go to bed. But that's the unabridged version of the post above.