[Paul]

Steve try getting that 99 version of quickbooks to write a payroll check, it's not going to happen without the $125 per year payroll support ! Opps I forget that it's more than 3 years out of date so you have to be running the 2003 version for the last of this year.......... then you have to upgrade again! My other company ran a different accounting program, to the tune of $25K plus $3K per year service agreement, it was good for 4 years then you had to buy the new version for what they where charging at that time!

What about Autocad last version I used was release 14, you think it works with windows XP? nope need to upgrade to the newer version for what $3600, most companies I know just fork over for the latest version every year just to keep up! thats 3600 per year!

In my mind if a software company is saying it's going to cost you $400 per year with upgrades each year or about $0.32 per hour to a single employee to work 1280 hours to your overhead thats not too bad, heck labor here just got a $3.00 an hour rasie for the next 4 years try planning that in your overhead and pricing, let alone fuel costs that seem to be getting more each week!

[agla]

Autocad 14 works fine on XP, although they tell you it does not. Where they get you is that they change the file format every few years. They just jumped from the 2004 format tothe 2007 format. That means it is a pain in the neck if you share files and don't upgrade your Autocad.

They appear to be bowing to a little bit of pressure though. In 2007 you can save down as far back as an Autocad 14 file (of course you'll lose all of the layout tabs in the process). They are starting to add more of the bells and whistles to Acad Lt that they held out before as well.

It just goes to show that with enough pressure things do change. I don't expect it will be diffeent with Dynascape or any other software.

[DynaSCAPEr]

Ok, looks like I'm on the hotseat.

To secondnature (Karla):

First, I have to come to the defense of our tech support people. To say we have bad customer service is completely unfair. I am able to access case history - you have made extensive use of our tech support in the past. We have supported you tremendously over the years, even though you made it clear you never had any intention to upgrade - we absolutely take care of our support obligations. Now, three years later, we've finally come to the point where we can't reasonably provide support to you at the same level, paid or not, and you cry foul.

Second, and more generally (pennscapes, secondnature)

Karla's issues with our software are not because our software is broken - it has been used quite heavily for the past three years, right? So pennscapes, we're not refusing to fix anything. Technology is incredibly complex - there are myriad possible interactions between operating systems, operating system patches, other pieces of software, and even pieces of hardware to consider. Add to this the fact that it is possible for users of our software to for lack of a better term "mess up" their systems. These types of problems manifest themselves in our software because our software happens to be the tool our customers rely on.

Expecting a software company to 'fix' problems like this indefinitely, without exception is ludicrous. It should be evident that many of the problems aren't even 'owned' by us. If you fill the tank of your skid steer with olive oil, would you expect the company you bought it from to diagnose and correct this problem? What about if you are trying to operate it underwater - are they on the hook for that too?

The reality is we often are tasked with diagnosing and 'repairing' problems that we did not create and have no part in. We often bend over backwards to help our users correct these problems, because they have no one else to turn to. Our blanket support as part of a subscription ensures that at least we get compensated for our efforts (often poorly).

I can understand that people are skeptical of technology, but we definitely haven't earned the mistrust and 'outrage' I'm hearing in this thread. Pennscapes, I visit this forum often (even though I do not post), and have grown to appreciate your contributions, but in this case I believe your harsh comments are way off base, and couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, it all seems to come down to perceived value. If you see little or no value in what we have to offer, then naturally you'll view everything we do as 'putting the screws' to you. This is absolutely not the case, but people often believe what they want to believe.

Karla, as I understand it your problem may be resolved by reinstalling the program, but that you are having an issue with your installation CD. Since we no longer sell the version you own (we don't press any CDs, etc) we do not carry replacement CDs. What I will do is see if I can find an old build and post it on a web or ftp site where you may be able to download it and create your own CD. I can't promise anything, but I'll email you if I have a solution.

Hope this helps,

F.

[Stonehenge]

Holy crap, Steve - as I was reading your posts, I was thinking the same thing Paul said - you have to spend $100 a year just to get Quickbooks payroll updates - every year. Then they completely stop servicing software after about 3 years, including payroll data (why can't they provide the data in the same format forever?), forcing you into a new purchase.

Photoshop will cost you $700-800 and you get nothing in updates - ever. You want updated stuff, you purchase an upgrade to the new version.

Horticopia - Printing their pictures can be as reliable as a coin toss, yet they don't give updates. In fact, you can't even buy a reduced-price upgrade - you have to buy the full version every time you want upgraded functionality.

Next year Microsoft will completely cease to support Windows 98 and Me.


To Karla, if Fred's right and the issue is a scratched CD, you might consider purchasing a CD resurfacer at BestBuy - they're $10 or so and can give life back to your CD. I can understand not wanting to lay down a large wad of cash when the only problem with your current setup is a damaged CD - I'm glad Fred is working on that one for you.

[DynaSCAPEr]

Karla,

I've located a historical build of DynaSCAPE that roughly corresponds to your purchase date. Check your email for download instructions.

Hope this helps,

F.

[PSUscaper]

Perhaps the point I'm getting too is being overlooked here. I'm not talking about 'upgradeable functions' of the program as being a problem.

What I'm talking about are the nuts and bolts of the program...........Like, I dont' know,.....drawing a line.

Its funny, but sometimes............it doesn' want to do that.

You want me to pay for upgrades to make it better in the sense of giving me new features..............ok, I can go for that.

But.................you want me to pay for upgrades to fix problems that are just flat out broken.........THATS A PROBLEM!

Here's a question. How many people out there trust their programs enough, that during a big drawing, you don't back it up and save it every 5-10 minutes in case it locks up?????

And I'm not talking about doing Iris crap....I mean, just flat out drawing.

I always try to save every couple of minutes because I know the program is going to lock up.

I'm not trying to change my program so it keeps current. I just want all the stupid little glitches fixed.

And yet, everyone here seems to think I should have to pay for this???

I guess, when i install a walkway and every 5th brick sinks, I'll tell the client that they will have to pay for a "UPGRADE" to fix them..............because it is NO DIFFERENT than this crap.

[DynaSCAPEr]

Originally posted by pennscapes
Perhaps the point I'm getting too is being overlooked here. I'm not talking about 'upgradeable functions' of the program as being a problem.

What I'm talking about are the nuts and bolts of the program...........Like, I dont' know,.....drawing a line.

Its funny, but sometimes............it doesn' want to do that.

You want me to pay for upgrades to make it better in the sense of giving me new features..............ok, I can go for that.

But.................you want me to pay for upgrades to fix problems that are just flat out broken.........THATS A PROBLEM!

Here's a question. How many people out there trust their programs enough, that during a big drawing, you don't back it up and save it every 5-10 minutes in case it locks up?????

And I'm not talking about doing Iris crap....I mean, just flat out drawing.

I always try to save every couple of minutes because I know the program is going to lock up.

I'm not trying to change my program so it keeps current. I just want all the stupid little glitches fixed.

And yet, everyone here seems to think I should have to pay for this???

I guess, when i install a walkway and every 5th brick sinks, I'll tell the client that they will have to pay for a "UPGRADE" to fix them..............because it is NO DIFFERENT than this crap.

What are the specific problems you've been encountering? I'd like to know what you're describing as 'flat out broken'. If you can't even draw a line, that's pretty serious - have you reported this to technical support? I'm not aware of any such outstanding issue, so if you are having them, please report them.

If you report issues to us, we investigate and fix them - it's part of the process. Again, due to the nature of software this can be difficult, and may take longer than you might like. Once more, I'd like to point out the possiblity that your issues may even be caused by another piece of software or hardware (even your OS!) on your system - it might not even be owned by us. (We encounter these regularly)

And your walkway example actually illustrates how different the two scenarios are. Although I've seen some botched paving jobs, most would agree that it is infinitely easier to get the details of your paving job right than it is to write and maintain a 'perfect' piece of software. Multi billion dollar companies like Microsoft still have difficulty churning out 'perfect' products (and they mess ours up sometimes too!) even though you'd think they have more than enough resources to do so.

If every software company investigated and resolved every single 'stupid gitch' (your words) that manifested in their products, whether caused by their software or anything else, until their product was perfect for every single individual for an indefinite time period - every single one of those companies would be bankrupt in fairly short order. Software engineering is by nature an inexact science - the pace of change is unequalled in any other industry. The key here is that the benefits of this type of technology outweigh the drawbacks, which is why software can be a viable and useful tool, even among green industry professionals.

The plain fact is that software is difficult to build and maintain, and nearly impossible to perfect. This is a reality, like it or not. For every piece of software you can say works 'perfectly' I can guarantee there is someone else who would say the exact opposite. We have always done our best to serve our customers, regardless of what you believe - and I can assure you we have a very loyal customer base to prove it.

Your choice of words like 'stupid' and 'crap' betray your bias against us, and against technology in general. You seem to resent being 'forced' into using software, and being 'forced' into paying for upgrades and support (which often results in the bugfixes that you believe should be free forever, right?). If that's the way you truly feel, there's always a full refund if you want it - we've never refused anyone, for any reason - it's not how we do business.

As an employee of a GTX sponsor, I visit here often, and post only when I feel I have something useful to add. Steve, I have the utmost respect for your views as a GTX contibutor and green industry pro, but I must say I find your harsh view of technology and our business to be entirely unjustified.

F.

[secondnature]

I am posting to let all know that Dynascape has assisted me with my software problem I was having, and it is finally resolved!

My software is working, and all is well in the kingdom.

Thank you to all that responded and voiced their opinion about this topic.

[Inspired]

My issue with Dynascape never got resolved, but not from a lack of trying on their part. So to be fair I though a little comparison might be interesting. This is part of a mailer I received from an AutoCAD retailer.

Quote:
"If you're currently working with a 2004 Autodesk product, there's important information you should know. As of March 15, 2007 2004 Autodesk products will be retiring. Autodesk will no longer be providing technical support or upgrade pricing on 2004 based AutoCAD software".

It goes on to talk about special prices on upgrades now till July 31st, but you get the point. They all say the same thing. Technology is moving ahead so quickly and to keep up we cannot afford to support the older software. Personally, I think it's a sales and market share issue, but I'm not a software business owner and I don't really know the challenges they face.

I do know it's a drag and an expense for us as users/business owners. Always buying the upgrades and dealing the problems that occur each time. Usually about the time everyone in your office gets up to speed the software company will "retire" that version and the chaos starts all over again. However, unless someone can show me a better way, that is what I/we have to deal with. When I had employees and two companies to run, Quickbooks was the best way but I grew to hate Symantec (spelling?). I will think twice before buying anything they build now. I always try and find another product from a different company, even after six years.

I really like the word, "retiring", though. I can visualize some poor marketing person pulling his/her hair out coming up with that one.

[agla]

One thing that I would like to say, not to slam Dynascape or any other software, is that I have used Autocad for twelve years between school and several offices and have never called technical support and can not remember any one else around me doing so. It is a very well developed software. Every other cad software that I have checked out including Intellicad has very noticable bugs in it that are apparent almost from the get go. I don't like the Autocad monopoly, but it is an extremely well developed software without a lot of bugs. This goes for Autocad LT as well.