[cutntrim]

I got a postcard from a local landscape architect firm advertising the fact that they're available for design work for landscape construction companies.

I'd kind of been kicking around the idea of feeling out some designers to see what they might offer me. So far in my new venture of branching into construction from maintenance, I've designed each project myself. These have been workable drawings but not of the quality that a trained designer could produce. Also, it takes me quite a while to churn one out too.

From what I've read in the forums, most of you do your designs in-house. Does anyone have experience with outsourcing design work? I was thinking that a "partnership" with a designer might be beneficial to both parties, as I'd give him/her design work for my customers, and he/she might reciprocate with installation work for customers that went to him/her for an initial design and are looking also for a contractor to put it in for them.

[Stonehenge]

I haven't seen Diginahole around here lately - I know he's had lots of things going on with family and business - but he was pursuing a similar relationship.

I would think there should be a little courtship; you want to make sure they can do the kinds of things you need them to, and in a professional manner. and they'd probably like to know that their names will be attached to a good final product.

Agla can answer better than I can, but I just read somewhere that the typical minimum fee for an LA to do a residential design is something around $1K. Now don't quote me - I know LA's who will work for much less.

But I would think that in the ideal relationship, you use them for design, they refer clients to you.

I was going to try something like that locally - we weren't giving up design, but an LA moved to the area and wanted to have a short list of good contractors to work with. It didn't really work out, but then the business model seemed only in my favor - we did our own designs, she referred work to us. She never saw an upside. That reminds me - I should give her a call this spring.

[site]

We refer out most of our design work. We let the LA's work directly with the homeowners. It works out great for us. We don't get bogged down doing design work when we should be out installing. We work with really good designers, so the jobs come out great. Also, the LA's call us in to install their jobs.

[Lanelle]

There needs to be an understanding with the LA regarding the pricing of the project to the client. If the LA comes up with a budget independently, it can create friction between all parties.
You may even want to see the design before it gets presented to the client so you can tweak out awkward construction problems and give the LA a budget estimate. I've seen LAs give clients a budget that was below wholesale. Nobody is happy then.

[cutntrim]

The mutually beneficial arrangement is what I'm looking for. When I'm approached by my own customers I'll do all the ground work with regards to the client's wants/needs, and budget in mind. Then I'd contact the LA (if a design is required/requested at all) and he'd do up a design from the info he gets from me for a fee.

Otherwise, I'd look for him to give me a call if he's got a client he did a design for and needs an installer to put it in. I'd have to check the design over, then see if it's feasible within the budget he's already discussed with his client. If so, then I'd put it in for him.

This way we could kick each other work throughout the season and stick to the skills we do best. I just need to find the right LA...

[Nebraska]

If you find the right match this could work out well. I tried it last season and it fizzled out for a number of reasons.

[agla]

I would hassten a guess that some of the reasons that these relationships often fizzle out are as follows.

1. The designer has to make his entire living from the design work. Whether that is a %, hourly, or a flat fee, it has got to be enough for him to stay in business. That will add to the client's cost of the job which effects your competitiveness (although this can be offset by a particularly effective designer) or it will cut into your profit margin.

2. You lose some control over the job simply because someone else designed it. Materials, techniques, and other things may not match up well with how you want to do things. That will effect your bottom line

3. The designer becomes a third wheel in the client contractor relationship. Either of you may contradict each other or somehow give the client reasons to cast doubt on either you or the designer. At worst, the designer may try to manage you and/or the job further interfering in the management of the job. That can effect your bottom line in very big ways.

4. Prospective customers almost always want one person in front of them who is the point person from design to completion. Knowing that they will start with an outside designer and then dealing with you again later vs. one stop shopping with your competitor is going to put you at a disadvantage.

5. An independent designer sometimes has other allegiances that you might not know about and may share info about how you operate to people you would rather keep in the dark.

6. Efficiency is essential to competitiveness and profit. There are many ways that your efficiency is broken in this relationship as mentioned above.

7. Marketing conflicts. Jobs that you build are part of the designer's portfolio. When he is working for your competitor as a designer, your work is being shown to help sell jobs for competing contractors.

I can go on for days. There are certainly good things that can happen as well. You can get much higher end work than you might be able to market yourself. The designer might have a better knack for upselling quality and features. You may get fed a steady flow of darn good jobs that you might not get otherwise. I think that the bigger your company is in terms of well managed man power and equipment, the more you can benefit.

I do belive that smaller companies would gain much more by hiring an in house designer who has enough other skills to be very productive during nondesign time. You can monitor designs as they develop so that they reflect what you want to do, the materials you want to sell, so that you are managing the job before it is even presented as a design. You can offer design services for far less money as the design work is somewhat of a marketing advantage and since the designer's wages are subsidized by other productive tasks. The designer can remain as the primary contact between the company and the client and be active in the management of the construction of the job. This relieves you of having to do all of these tasks for every job. The bottom line is that the customers cost to get the job done remains competitive, you are in full control of the job all of the way through, you gain an assistant in the upper management of the company who is more polished and articulate than most of your foremen.

Certainly a good LA or designer can do a lot for you. But, you have got to be already there because they are not going to put their reputation on the line to try to help a company lift itself up. Competitive pricing is not what they value. Tried and true with lots of man power to get in and move the job through efficiently is what they are after.

[cutntrim]

Agla, that's a well thought out response. All valid points. I emailed the LA so I'll wait for a response and take it from there. Funny, my wife acts as a sounding board for me when I'm kicking around new ideas, and she mentioned a few of the same disadvantages that you did.

The majority of my jobs have not, and likely won't, require a full blown done to scale professionally laid out, architectual drawing. For those jobs, I am perfectly capable of handling everything start-to-finish.

I'm just looking to have a LA in mind when a customer does want the full design done, incorporating an entire landscape of their property, rather than an individual feature (eg. patio) added to their current landscape. Beyond that, if the LA has some customers that he would like a contractor to put in for him, I'd be glad to have a look at them.

Your idea of hiring an in-house designer may work as I have more need for designs on a regular basis. At that point, I may look for young students that are completing their design studies and are looking for work. They can do design work for me, and work in the field too. In the winter I'd have them plowing as well.

[Nebraska]

Alga... WOW!

You definitely nailed a many of the reasons in our case. For us, from our past experience paired with your highly ituitive response I tend to agree with you about hiring a multi-talented individual whose skill set includes design work. Now where to find someone like this? I, like cutntrim, seem to be leaning to students or recent graduates for a source of individuals of this nature.

[cutntrim]

Got a response from the LA who sent me the postcard. He emailed me last night. Graduated from Ryerson University's LA program in '95. Worked for a few design firms after graduation, struck out on his own recently. Is a solo-operation, and he's marketing himself as a professional, experienced designer who will take my clients through the design process from initial consultation, to conceptual plan, to finished drawing done on Dynascape software with my company name in the title block. From that point I take over, if a build is a go.

The Dynascape guys have their headquarters about a "long par five" away from my house here in Burlington. I've thought about trying their software myself, but I'm stretched thin for time as it is. I wear too many hats in this business currently to be able to take the time to master the software right now.


We've got what could be a major snowstorm headed for us so I'll be busy the next few days, but I'm going to give him a call and set up a meeting with him so we can check each other out. Seems there could be some potential here. At least I know he's a full-time architect and wouldn't be scooping the cherry projects for himself to install.

Coincidentally, my ex-business partner also went to Ryerson and studied for a year-and-a-half (before bailing) in the same program. I think he was there at the same time too...

[Nebraska]

I know this is off topic cuntntrim but send some snow BACK to the West & South! Specifically longitude and latitude 41.26N & 95.99W

Please keep us posted of how this works for you. I definitely am interested.

[Alpenglow]

I graduated 5 years ago with a M.S. in Horticulture/Landscape Design and have worked off and on in Landscaping and Landscape Design, but primarily as a seasonal with National Parks. I am now starting a Landscape Design Business as my primary income. I have already ran into situations that I had not previously encountered.
The biggest problem and my question is what is the designers place when hired as a sub-contractor? Most of the Landscapers I use just hand over the Clients name and say go to it and when it comes to the install It goes to that Landscaper. I sthere some un spoken etiquette to use.
I have only one Landscaper that gives me headaches. He acts as a go between so that I never meet the CLient then tells them what he thinks my designs will cost and complains when I say that doesn't work. I have had to drop the prices of my designs because he says they won't pay that price, and that he has to have creative control. He says he hired me so he pays me then I only get half of the cost and he walks with my design! I realize the latter is my own fault. You may be thinking "why don't you just drop this guy?" Well, I live in a tiny town and I can get decent jobs from him. I guess I need some help with business savvy. Please Help!!!

[agla]

Alpenglow,

I have sent you a private message.

[cutntrim]

Update:

The landscape designer I referred to has just completed his first design for me and it is impressive. Done using DynaScape and includes a few digital photo blow-ups of specific features (pergola, decorative screen, etc...). As well, he included a plant care package giving digital photos and detailed care instructions for 90+% of the plants to be installed. He scanned my business card into the title block with his name under "Design By:". It looks great, and he presented it to me yesterday along with his invoice for $642.00 incl. tax.

Now I need to sell the job to the client. My potential problem is that I did not get a design contract signed beforehand and have just set it all up verbally and via e-mail. Ironic that I (of all people) should do that, since I have formal contracts for all aspects of maintenance including items as small as driveway snowplowing. I didn't specifically tell the client that it'd be $75/hr and end up taking 8 hours to do.

So...I'm meeting them likely tomorrow night and I'm not even going to mention design fee initially. I'll let them be WOWED by the design and start talking about phases and scheduling availability. However, I can't leave their house without either a cheque for the design (at minimum), or a contract for installation of at least phase one. Arrrgh, open to sugestions as to how to handle this...

[synner]

If you don't leave with a cheque or a contract for installation then make sure you leave with the design. That way they have to come back to you for the design ideas. If they pay for the design, leave it with them and hope they call you for the install. We run into this a lot. Sometimes the client needs to hear that you will credit them the cost of the design if you do the install for them.


About 2 years ago I realised I wasn't making any profit in the design stage of a project. We too sub it through a designer who presents us everything in a neat Dynascape package. Its been a great relationship.