[Alpenglow]

O.K. I have my own business that is strictly design with a few fluff garden maintenance jobs. I live in a small town where there are only about 4/5 Landscape Installation companies. I am one of the only designers in town. I work with all of the landscapers and contractors as there is not enough business for just one to keep me busy.
I have found that for me personally it is much better to work with the client first hand because I can raise questions and issues I may have right then. I have also found in the few instances where I have no contact with the client I almost always have to change something in a design or something was left out ...basically communication problems. There has been one or two instances where the Landscaper actually told the client an incorrect hourly rate for my services.
I have my own business for a reason....so it get's hairy when we get into the subcontractor/working with the client first hand issue.
I kind of feel like when I get design jobs where the client has no landscaper in mind when one is chosen (usually by my suggestion) I don't "sub-contract" the work to them I just let them do what they think is best and give them guidance when needed. So I would like the same sort of treatment from the installer. Being that the most important thing is that the client gets what they signed up for in a cost efficient timely manner.
I have found that what works best for me and everyone is that we (installer and designer) meet the clients together for the initial visit then I take it from there and once the design is finished the landscaper can use the design to make their bid.
Any respectable designer would not talk down about the Landscaper chosen to do the work or they should not take jobs from them.
Alright I am getting off track...I just thought I would throw in another perspective.

[cutntrim]

You're right, that is off track, but your comments are appreciated. The designer I'm working with prefers to deal with the landscaper and not directly with the client. I was open to either way and told him so. This is job #1 using his services so we'll see how it works out...for me. It's working out great for him, 'cause all he's had to do is the design and regardless of what happens when I meet the client...he still gets paid his full design fee...by me.

Synner - You can bet that I WILL be leaving with the design, if I'm not leaving with a cheque (either for the drawing or also a down payment/contract for the install).

Note to self: always get written authorization/contract for design BEFORE having designer start work on one.

[Alpenglow]

I agree most definitely about leaving with the design. Although, I have sent many designs in the mail before receiving payments ( I live in a summer home kind of town). I haven't ever had any trouble with that aspect. I also do not have a contract for people to sign. Probably should get one!

[cutntrim]

Originally posted by cutntrim

Synner - You can bet that I WILL be leaving with the design, if I'm not leaving with a cheque (either for the drawing or also a down payment/contract for the install).

Well...I left them the design and didn't leave with a cheque. Going with my gut on this one. If I'm wrong it'll be a $642 lesson learned.

It was a "shock and awe" meeting. The clients were shocked that the design was going to cost them over $700 including tax, but they were awed by the design itself and excited about the possibilites for their yard.

My gut tells me I'll probably get the job, but I should have listened to it when they were "ooohing" and "awwwing" over the design, and just kept my mouth shut about charging for it since I hadn't specifically outlined any fees in advance.

[cutntrim]

From now on I'll only have designs done for those that have been informed of the cost involved, and then I'll also know when to give firm pricing for the install as well. I kind of contradicted myself by coming in with a full scale design, but only ballpark pricing for each phase. Live and learn I guess.

[PSUscaper]

Sounds like a very unprofitable way to go about things.........

I beg you to never do that again.

I do freelance design on the side and I can't count the number of plans I do for other contractors who NEVER get the job.

I don't even understand how I can do a plan for someone without meeting them and discussing what they want done....yet contractors INSIST I do a plan for them to show a 'potential' client.

I have to ask cut, did your designer meet with the customer at least? I just could not imagine spending close to 800 bucks on a 'possible job'.

Also, just curious as what the total job value was. I can bang out a pretty decent plan for a 100k job plus for a contractor in less than a day....and I'm not making $800.

No offense to LA's here....but I'll say this to cut.... Drop the LA designer and just find someone who does landscape design. You don't need a LA degree to design a landscape.....and most of all, you don't need to be paying LA's fee to get a nice landscape plan for most residential designs.

[cutntrim]

He's not a certified landscape architect and he didn't meet with the client. The client actually measured his yard to scale and provided me a copy of it which I forwarded, along with the client's wish list, to the designer. A week-or-so later he called with his completed design. Came over with it, plus a "plant care" package (photos, descriptions, and maintenance requirements of each plant choice) and a bill for $642.00 for 8 hrs design work.

Client e-mailed today that they've decided to go with a competitor. I went over there tonight and took back the design I'd left with them. Bottom-line: a hard lesson learned.

And no...I will never do that again.

[sleepy]

The problem I have with L.A 's is the budget. The jobs Ive bidded on were a big fat waste of time for me. The "how much do you want to spend" question hasent seemed to cross the minds of our local design firms. I come in and ya they want the stucco wall with the mosaic. They want the most expencive stone for the patio. They want the good neighbor fence with all the trim . That costs alot of money and 10 or 20 grand dosent go very far. For all the bells and whistles. I also see alot of mass planting that I dont personaly like and frankly some plants that just might not make it. Im responsable for the end product of the job not the designer. Im a licenced contractor they are not! Design build is the way to go. Find someone who you can work with not against in this situation and you both have to gamble on getting the job. Do a rough plan with a budget in mind and go from there. This is a "design feasability study" than you can acheive what the costomer wants and can afford. Yes that study costs money for your and your designers time.
Just my 2 cents
Do you talk about budget alga?Im not dissin the designers just the dreamer customers who think its all so cheap.

[agla]

I don't talk about budget. I also don't talk about plants that don't survive here.

I do understand what you are saying. I see LA plans that just go out of their way to build expense into them. I see LAs go on all kinds of design tangents. I see some that seem to feel the need to introduce weird or hard to get plants in order to try to make themselves look smarter than the rest of the world. But, I have also seen LAs who do a fantastic job of addressing the needs of their clients.

One thing a lot of home owners say about LAs is that they are snobs and will only work for people with big budgets. One thing that the contractors who do not typically work with those big budgets say about LAs is that they don't seem to know what they are doing.

I started out as a teenager working with my father. In my early twenties I went to school to be an LA. I had two problems there. One is that I could not draw well (1981, before cad). The other was that my professors did not know the things that I knew from actually building and maintaining landscapes. At that time you could not work as an LA if you could not draw very very well. That also meant that graphic presentation was worth about 70% of your grades in school whether you knew how to put a landscape together or not. I dropped out and started a landscape contracting, design, and maintenance business that probably reflects about 80% of the businesses owned by members of this forum. I had four trucks, four workers, and did everything from cleaning gutters and raking leaves for little old ladies to designing and building nice gardens and patios in exclusive neighborhoods. I dealt with the same struggles many of you deal with. The help situation, getting to that "hump" where you can't seem to grow past a certain point, collecting every tool and piece of equipment known to man, and having to take on the projects that you really don't want to do in order to keep the cash flow. The thing that got to me was that I could not, or did not, shake the work that I did not want to do in favor of just doing higher end design/build. I did some of that, but not exclusively.

When you are in business, you begin to think like your customers because you have to in order to make sales. If you work for regular folks like ourselves, you have to think budget. In fact you have to prioritize budget. Half the decisions you make in designing a landscape are made by placing budget over substance. It fights you through the whole design process and compromises everything you do.

Now every once in a while you get a higher end job, but you (and me when I worked all niches) are programed to worry about the budget. The statement above that 10-20 grand does not go far is very true. Actually, 50 grand does not go far. It also follows that someone spending under 50k is not going to be looking to spend 5k on top of that for an LA. Part of that is because it is a big chunk out of that small budget, but the other part is that the site is probably pretty simple and only needs plantings and some basic hardscapes. Hiring a good LA does not have that much value in that situation.

What often happens is that some LAs are much like I was when I was a contractor. They take on work to keep busy and some cash flow coming in (like raking leaves and cleaning gutters). Frankly, these are the LAs many of you run into. Some of them just su(k, while others are trying to force elements and materials into jobs that simply can't absorb them because of budget or context. Still others are just totally inexperienced with the real world.

After you spend 5 years to get an accredited degree and have to work 2 years for a licensed LA before you can sit down and take three days of exams (maybe several times and for a great deal of money) to get licensed, you should have a pretty good understanding of how this LA business works. You have to work in high end (50 and way over), or you won't survive. You can't work for the middle class because you have nothing of enough value to them to offer them that they can't get from good landscape contractors.

Wednesday night, I went to a home of my daughter's friend because her parents wanted "professional advice". Nice new $500k home (he is a builder). They had done a basic foundation planting, a nice lawn, and have been cleaning the woods around the house. They had done a cheesy job on everything that they new they wanted. They don't want to change any of that. What am I suppose to do? Tell them the next thing that they want? Tell them why what they did is not working well? Propose a bunch of high end work that they can't afford and have little interest in? I did not charge these people not because they were friends, but because they were going to get nothing out of it. I really can't work in that niche because it is trying to sell ice to Eskimos (native Alaskans for any PC people). If an Eskimo buys ice, he feels ripped off. If you give it to him, you don't make a living. You have to sell the ice to people who need it and value it.

I'm sure those folks I met the other night thought "he doesn't know anything". That is not the reaction I get from people who have the needs that I fill.

I have to run. I'll babble more later.

[Vmbdesignworks]

I can do small or large scale jobs depending upon your needs. I have 10 years of experience, a bachelor's degree in landscape architecture and an associates degree in horticulture. I have worked around Colorado, Illinois, Texas and Florida doing design work. I can provide graphic examples and references upon request. I have extensive plant knowledge in zones 4-9. I can put together very professional graphic packages with company logo's & title blocks. If you're interested please let me know...I am currently doing freelance work with several small companies through out Illinois & Florida. I have found it easy to set up professional designs with blueprints pictures and phone calls.

Thanks!!
Valla

[cadman]

I'm new to this forum. So two years later, how are things going for you? Anyone else also?? Tire kickers = how did you handle them?? AK