[Malrex]

As most of you know, this is my first year doing business, so I'm curious how often this happens.

I bidded a job with a couple who know my father-in-law (aquantaince). I did a design, showed the lady, and she didn't blink an eye on the price and signed my contract immediately. I got a call from her today asking for my material and labor breakdown for her husband who wanted to look at it. Her husband hasn't shown any interest in the project t all. I told her that wouldn't be a problem...mainly because 1. she knows my father-in-law and 2. I strive to be honest with my customers and really don't have anything to hide with my prices, (and 3. he helped me get my business insurance). However, after hanging up the phone, I started to feel a little angry, like they felt I was jipping them or something...I didn't feel the trust.

Do customers ask for a material and labor breakdown all the time? I usually just give a short version of Materials = this, Equipment = this, and labor = this. Do I need to be more elaborate with my contract, supplying a break down of material and labor and how I got to that price? On one hand I can understand why they may want to see it-as they are spending alot of money, on the other hand, I didn't ask him his salary first when I went in for business insurance.

[agla]

Don't give them your mark up and labor rates.Just break the job up in general like...

1. To supply and install (insert plant list here: (7) Ilex crenata compacta #1, (6) Euonymus 'Emerald 'n' Gold' #1, ...) with fertilizer and soil ammendments ..... $x,xxx.xx

2. To install bluestone patio per plan dated x/xx/xx on 4-6" inches of compacted stonedust ......... $x,xxx.xx

3. To remove existing lawn and prepare planting beds ...

4. Miscellaneous expenses including but not limited to dump fees,...

[Stonehenge]

I provide a project total and that's all. I had one client ask for a material and labor breakdown, said she wanted to know exactly the number of block and brick going in at her house. I obliged.

She was the worst customer I've had in my life, and we ended our relationship in court.

We're almost never asked now, and when we are, two things happen:

1) I tell them "we don't break out our projects that way", and

2) I consider the huge red flag that was just raised, and decide if I still want to do business with that client. If not, I walk.

You might want to consider the same.

[Nebraska]

Only provide a total to do the work as described.

As pointed out, to do otherwise is asking for trouble.

[Raj Venugopal]

Our business is still in its first few years. When we started I broke everything down. I found that distracted from the overall estimate. People, and I, got focussed too much on the trees than the forest. We're taking Agla's approach now, and it's a lot easier to digest for all.

People have a right to ask for a breakdown, and you shouldn't take it personally. You also have the right to run your business as a business, not a charity, and work within the parameters you feel comfortable within. Do what makes business sense for you, and don't feel apologetic for billing according to your skill and the proposed work.

[Mark Oomkes]

Originally posted by agla
Don't give them your mark up and labor rates.Just break the job up in general like...

1. To supply and install (insert plant list here: (7) Ilex crenata compacta #1, (6) Euonymus 'Emerald 'n' Gold' #1, ...) with fertilizer and soil ammendments ..... $x,xxx.xx

2. To install bluestone patio per plan dated x/xx/xx on 4-6" inches of compacted stonedust ......... $x,xxx.xx

3. To remove existing lawn and prepare planting beds ...

4. Miscellaneous expenses including but not limited to dump fees,...

Ditto (again)

Not saying it would happen, but eventually you will get the "I saw this plant at the garden center for $X.XX" and your price is $X.XX + 10% or whatever or it might be less even with a markup if you're getting wholesale from a nursery. Like Raj said, you won't see the forest for the trees.

[Fine Edge]

We will include square footages and linear footages and of course a detailed plant list but never break down labor & materials .
In the middle of one simple planting job where client has to have everything priced per plant. Have had to re-do the entire way I estimate things just for him.
It, too, is turning into a nightmare.

[Stonehenge]

To add to what Mark said, one other thing you may find with other clients, is if something were to be broken out by plant, for example, your landscape will suffer what other industries call "adverse selection" - everything expensive will be deleted and replaced with something cheap. So the laceleaf Japanese Maple is taken out, a Rosy Glow Barberry put in it's place.

For some clients. I'll go so far as to explain to them that not breaking it out is done to save them from themselves - if the plan doesn't meet their budget, tell me how much needs to be cut and I'll cut it in a way that best maintains the look I was trying to achieve, versus just eliminating any plant that's over $18.

But in this particular case, again, I see a big red flag waving in the wind.

[Malrex]

Originally posted by Stonehenge


For some clients. I'll go so far as to explain to them that not breaking it out is done to save them from themselves - if the plan doesn't meet their budget, tell me how much needs to be cut and I'll cut it in a way that best maintains the look I was trying to achieve, versus just eliminating any plant that's over $18.

I like that idea Stone. So far, I've asked what sort of budget the customer has for projects and they never give me a straight answer. I find that sort of annoying as I create a neat design for their yard, but then need to rework it as finally after seeing my estimate they give me their budget (not all the time, but twice now). Anyways, I think that approach/statement is good for the future.

As for my current condition, I followed Agla's approach...my first year, I feel I need the job to start getting my name out there, so going to try and keep with it. Plus, if the red flag starts flying crazy, will help me gain some experience in dealing with that sort of situation...I guess...always try to think positive!

[prapoza]

I ask for peoples budgets too. Some are hesitant because they think you will do the least for their money (rip'em off). Some have no idea what landscaping costs so they have no idea what they are thinking about having installed costs. What I do is 1. ask for the budget after they have explained what they want to do. if they don't give it to me I tell them based on my experience similar landscapes we've done in the past have cost X. 2. If they still don't give it I explain we want to design and create what you've envisioned. I can't do that without some direction (budget). 3. "You wouldn't ask an architect or builder to build you a house without knowing how much you have to spend right" "I can design a landscape here from $25K to $100K it depends on what your expectations are how large the plant material we are using, hardscaping, etc, etc... I always walk out with a number after all that. Sometimes I propose a number as stated above and they nod their head. I also let people know up front in a friendly way that I am in business and expect to make a profit and they will get great value from me and my company.

_________
Paul

P.S. As stated above, never breakout things for customers. It only leads to trouble. Too much information.

[EpicInterlock]

I second, third.....fourteen everyone on here. I never break down my prices, especially my labour rates. I've been asked a few times how much do I charge per square foot. I HATE that, and I'll tell you why.
1) What if I'm working on a backyard patio, and the distance from the curb (where my bricks, limestone etc usually are delivered) to the backyard is a considerable distance away.
2) What if the ground I'm working on is very soft and will be a hindrance for my machines and men.
3) What if the ground I have to traverse on is sloped.

I could keep going with tons of different examples of why I don't charge per square foot, I just charge per job. So if a customer asks for a price break down, I always say dimplomatically "I don't charge per square foot for the above reasons" and for the most part, the customer accepts this.
Stonehenge brings up a very valid point. Not only it's a red flag when a customer asks for a break down, it's a huge hassle and time waster to break it down.....especially if the customer is a nit picker (which usually is the case) and is a huge no no.

Good luck

[Alberto]

Some people have a lot of gall. I have actually been asked by certain special customers how much we pay our workers! More and more, I'm showing less and less on my bids or job quotes. I will usually show the plant and materials list with size, square yardage on sod, seeding, etc., and sometimes square foot frontage on retaining walls or stonework, sometimes not. I usually don't show any individual plant or materials prices or labor breakdown. It shouldn't be this way, but for a lot of clients the less they know, the better.

[johnkeegan]

I itemize every plant and show square footage, lengths, heights for walls etc. The customers needs to see what they are paying for. If they are comparing my estimate to someone else's they need to see that that (as Stone said earlier) laceleaf Japanese Maple I proposed at $500 is not the same as the $30 Rose Glow Barberry that the local lowballer proposed. They also need to see that the larger size plants costs more. And that I have a larger patio or wall. Once they see all these things itemized and they compare it to the lowballer. They understand the cost difference.

But I also never argue or "haggle" prices. If they want to pay less, they get less.
And, with new customers, I charge for estimates and designs. That may weed out some of the undesirables.

...And if you are using a business software such as Quickbooks making changes and deletions is simple. ... "What you only want to spend $10K instead of $12K? Fine. I'll remove the four spruce itemized out at $500/ tree including labor (click "delete line")and email you the new estimate (click "send")."

[cutntrim]

I'll break it down into phases if they want (i.e. front entrance, side walkway, back patio, garden beds, etc...) but always explain that it's more cost effective (for both of us) to do the whole project in one shot. I've given a seperate total for labour vs. material before but don't do that anymore either. One flat price is the best way to go.

[Squizzy Taylor]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
[b]I provide a project total and that's all. I had one client ask for a material and labor breakdown, said she wanted to know exactly the number of block and brick going in at her house. I obliged.

.She was the worst customer I've had in my life, and we ended our relationship in court.

This has been my exact experience with a client who it turned out was a pathalogical liar. What a nightmare.

As a result Clause 8 (financials) of the Squizzy contracts states "please notify us in writing if you require an itemised account - a minimum fee of $300.00 will apply in advance if you require this service"

I just wish I had read this thread before I got involved with that client. Its my experience that people who want to scrutinise your account to this detail are the ones who begrudge you earning an honest dollar.....and know nothing about the cost of workers comp insurance, tyres for trucks, liability insurance and so on.

Whilst I fully believe you must be able to justify your cost.....the client is not the one that is qualified to make that judgement.....and if its fully itemised then they are just trying to take food off your table. The client has a right to know exactly what goods and services they are getting for their dollar and I make my quotes very detailed in this regard.

Thats it!...I'm off to take my medication