[Nathaniel Carr]

I have a sticky situation:
Last year I teamed up with a Land scape designer. They have a nursery. The majority of my work came through them last year. We were refered to jobs by them. I did the work and either bought the plants at their nursery or the Homeowner bought the plants.

This year the designers are the GC and we are the subs. They wanted to be more closely involved in the projects so they could get a cut. (Last year there was talk of paying them a finders fee...)

They have a bunch of projects on the boards. One was sold a few weeks ago, it is on my calander for a few weeks from now, but I haven't got a deposit on it yet. By my policy no $ no calander.

I need to figure out a way to remind them of my policy with out seeming like a total jerk. We have been over it a number of times and they know I agreed to the new system after they assured me that they were going to run the projects from a seperate account. (Lest the cash flow needs of their other business take priorty) They are still working the kinks out of their new system so I am inclined to cut them some slack. But I was on the phone for an half an hr with the homeowner last night and she is committed to the project but I am not until I get that check. Of course I didn't mention it to her.

And as you craft your response remember, the relationship with the designer must be preserved....

[GLAN]

I don't see how their reorganization affects you and you getting a deposit.

They are reorganizing for themselves......not you.

So....you may want to bring that into the conversation........but yes.............you both have to iron this situation out.


Me..........I don't give a damn what someone has on their calendar or how many jobs are booked or how much a job is worth.........means nothing till a retainer fee has been paid.

[PSUscaper]

"I need to figure out a way to remind them of my policy with out seeming like a total jerk"

The day you start thinking you're a jerk asking for money is the day you should close your doors. If they run their own business and don't understand why you need a deposit, then I think you should think about other arrangements as they truly don't value you or your business.

If they have kinks to work out, let them work them out. But in the meantime, tell them to start writing the checks. Their problems should not become yours, and from the sounds of it, it sounds like they are. It sounds like they are sticking their hands more into your pockets to cover the lack of funds in their own. If they want to play GC, then let them play GC and do the work they are getting paid for. Like most gc's, it sounds like they are trying to make more money and do less work. Be very careful with this situation, as it sounds like it could go sour very quickly.

[Nathaniel Carr]

PSU
I was really anxious about them playing the GC roll when we negotiated it this winter. Their motivation is to get paid for all of the work that they do, which goes beyond the drawing they deliver to the client. They place the plants and make desisions about stuff that isn't detailed on the drawing. Now if they did all the details, planting schedule and detail drawings the plans would be pricesd too high for our market. And it is fine with me that they want to be involved at the level that they are....
I didn't mean that I would seem like a jerk for asking for the deposit, it is just that I want to be political. We have a meeting today and I will bring it up again.
The real problem is that the designer is not the person who writes the checks. I need to go higher up with out going over her head. If you know what I mean.

[Matt Kulp]

Ask for a check the day they want it scheduled. You are holding time for there work, and that means that you are not out selling those hours. Second, did they get a check for deposit? I will never put anything on the schedule until the customer shows me the money. If the designer does not have the pull to get the deposit, then I say go over her head. You have to be professional and in some cases maybe a little lenient, but you are also a businessman and if you give in now, they will not forget it and the deposits will come later and later and later.... I would get your policy down on paper, as well as have a written agreement between both parties on how the process will work. Are they going to pay you when the job is complete, or when they get paid?

I think the most important item in this situation is to get everything down in writing for both parties and hold each other accountable. No one has the right to direct your policy and if they do not comply with the agreement, then you should be able to charge additional fees. JMO

[Raj Venugopal]

Can you turn the tables and propose retaining GC role and subbing them for the "extras" you've mentioned? You keep the GC headaches and they get paid for their "extras" which are in turn accounted for in the total budget.

[Nathaniel Carr]

I saw her today and she actually said "the check is in the mail" when I got home it was there.
I think I do need some written agreements though. I can't be out on a limb like this with each job and each scheduled payment.

[agla]

There is a fine balance here that should work for everyone. There are three different people who stand to benefit by the relationship. When any of them think that they are the most essential it stresses the relationship. Each has something to give and each has something to gain.

The starting point is the nursery. They have lots of people coming in which creates a very strong well targeted customer base for selling design and construction. The nursery has enough to manage (since they are subbing) running their nursery. But they still are the source for a steady supply of design work. The design work has to get built and built well for the designers reputation.

The weakest link in the whole deal is the designer. Without the nursery the designer would not get enough work or (s)he would not be commited to moving plants for that particular nursery. There are a lot of people who would love to be fed the design service work from a good nursery and there are a lot of hungry designers out there. The nursery does have a big edge over the designer - feast or famine.

You are a contractor who is not commited to work for or by from any particular nursery.On the other hand they don't have to use you either. Most likely, they are using you because you do good work and do it with good service. Maybe they can replace you, but maybe they feel like you do very well for them. In any event, they are not your sole source of work which makes you not as beholden to them as the designer.

Is the designer a sub or an employee of the nursery? If (s)he is a sub, there is a big risk to the nursery having her/him taking on the project management role. First of all it is adding another layer of expense onto the customer for management sevices that do not seem to be needed. It also either either becomes the designer's job or the nursery is taking on the liability of the designer (who probably does not have errors and ommissions insurance).

Ideally, the designer should be able to charge for design services and keep the money. You should be able to charge for your services and keep the money.The nursery should be able to charge for the plants and keep the money. The only person givin anything up in that relationship is you because you don't make any money on the plants.

What has happened is that the designer is thinking that (s)he (it is a she isn't it?) should be getting a percentage because that is what they read and hear about. That is for project management which comes after the design. What is there to manage? The nursery has the plants and will select the finest for the job (and you can't get them anywhere else), the contractor is already selected, the designer probably knows nothing about any other aspect of the project besides plant arrangement, so there is really no project management that needs to be done.

I would remind the nursery that you are giving up your ability to mark up plant materials and that you are grateful for the work that they provide, but there is a limit to your generosity. Also suggest that additional expenses charged to the customer for unneeded project management could serve the nursery better if they were used to buy more materials from them.

I don't think that there are a lot of good contractors licking their chops to get at landscape work where they are not going to make money on the plants. Then throw in some designer who may or may not know much about the construction to start interfering with how things are done?

I think they are pushing this a little too far and you need to reine them in. The easiest part of this relationship to replace is the designer.

I think the nursery should want to reine in the designer because if (s)he takes on too much power in this relationship, (s)he'll be independent and buying plants more directly which will cost them business (I don't know how you could tell them that tactfully).

I'm a designer, by the way.

[Nathaniel Carr]

Hey Alga I am glad to see your contribution here. Thank you for your well considered thoughts.

In that this is a discussion board I would like to further the discussion by clarifying the arangement that I have with this perticular operation.

I am the contractor. And I have been doing fine. But I want to do better than fine. SO I wooed this nursery that just started a design practice. The nursery owner is an accomplished landscape designer and he has hired a promising lady to help with the design work. He is busy with the nursery and she is taking more of a lead role on the client relations side.

This is the first time that she has worked in this capacity and I think he has given her enough rope to hang her self with, if you know what I mean. So he is almost out of the picture. I have years of experience doing the kind of work that she is learning how to do, so I really feel like the added cost of job administration doesn't have alot of value to the customer.

Our deal is that they get the work, have me look over the concept drawing and give an estimate on it. (My business model is based on giving firm bids so this is sort of a learning process for ME) They add 10% to my estimate, they write a contract and schedule a sales meeting that I attend. They get a 50% deposit, hand me my third of the total job cost and then I put it in the books. I buy the plants from them at their discounted rate (20% off retail, I could buy them else where for less) I have to mark their plants up past retail to recover my Overhead and Profit. (which doesn't seem right but I can't figure out how to run the business with out overhead recovery and profit, Can you?).

I know the designer is using the 10% GC fee to cover the cost of:
a) pulling the plants-which are not spelled out on the design because of the chance that the nursery would sell out of whatever was scheduled before a deposit check was written.
b) to recover the non billable costs associated with the design, like fussy plot surveying, hand holding, return visits because the husband couldn't get home from work in time to make the meeting, and that kind of thing. (which I would assume would be built into their Hrly rate.)

So to bring it all back together, My motivation is to do great work every day and have fun doing it (which for me means building horticulturally significant projects). Her motivation is to further her career working for a well regarded nursery. And the Nursery owners motivation is to hustle plants out the door.

We will all win from this arangement but we have to keep each others self interest in mind. The only one who loses seems to be the home owner who will be paying just a tough too much for the plants and the experience. We just need to make sure that they feel like they are getting good value.
But that is a whole other discussion...

[agla]

Well, you have to understand that the when you are in a diamond mine, you have to pass on the gold nuggets.

In other words, they have so many leads that they can afford to price higher and lose a few sales. The customers that feel like they are getting value for their money will still sign on. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact there is everything right with that.

If the goose still lays the golden eggs, then there is no problem.

Your role is to make sure that the process is completed which is what neither the designer or nursery can do without somebody like you. I'm glad that you are able to mark up the plants. I assumed that the nursery was recovering retail price on these as their benefit for supplying the leads.

Ideally, I think it would be best if the designer was getting a fee for design that she gets to pocket, the nursery was getting retail for the plants, and the designer was seeing that you got significant hardscape and other ammenities worked into the plan to increase your bottom line. Then everybody has an incentive to watch out for the others.

It is not easy for someone to hang a shingle saying that they are a landscape designer and having people line up at the door. There are hundreds of people out there that garden and dream about making a living at it. Most of the ones that do are only designing what they can build. This is a great opportunity for that designer. If she is young, she probably does not realize how important that nursery's reputation is to her having any work at all and that without an established relationship with a contractor almost no one will sign on to an independent designer. That is something that people coming into the design field just don't understand.

Every guy wants to quit his corporate job to have his own sports bar or pizza shop and every woman wants a bed and breakfast or to be a landscape designer. Most of any of these folks go broke really quickly when they act on it.