[sandim]

Hi all,

We're entering our second year in business and I just got a major shaft. Got a client who wanted 2 sides of thier yard (a large yard I might add) landscaped for privacy.
Did the research, did the design, presented the design in our 3D software as well as an estimate. Really busted my hump and worked way too hard, too long. Realize now this was a big mistake...but not sure how to correct it?
Usually we charge $150 for a design and apply it toward the job if the client decides to go forward. It doesn't seem fair to us to have to design a huge job for $150 and have the client bag out. My partners thought is charge by the square foot, kind of like mowing a lawn. If the person is serious, this shouldn't be a problem as whatever the price will be put toward the bill. Any thoughts on this?
Also, figured out we should have done a much more generic design, but again, how do you do this when you really want to impress the client, get the job, and make a name for yourself when you're so hungry for business?

Any advice appreciated.

____________________________

Sandi

Connecticut

[agla]

You have two factors going into this. One is you and the other is them.

What you need to be able to do is make a significant enough impression upon them in your first meeting to get them to pay for a design. A hundred and fifty bucks is not a lot of money if you get something for it which is good for the client and good for you in that it gives you opportunity to land an install job.

None of this works if your prospect is a cheap bast ... skate. Those people are not going to do anything unless it is under valued, so they are no loss to you if they don't bite.

My advice, as someone who went all through this, is to work on your ability to show the potential client enough of your good senses and abilities by being very free with your ideas verbally as you walk their site. Then present them with the next step in the process which is a plan. It can be simple or elaborate as long as it is what is right for the job that you have discussed. I don't think it is a bad idea to do these inexpensively as part of your marketing angle rather than to try to make a living of of the designs simply because the real money is in the materials and work. A logical prospect who likes your ideas will see it for what it is - the logical next step.

Not everyone is going to take that logical next step, but tthe alternative is for you to take an illogical next step by investing time (probably more than $150 worth) into something that the prospect won't invest that $150 in.

The worst thing is to value getting a job more than the person you are going to do it for values having it done. It is fatal over time.

[sandim]

That makes sense. The only problem I have is that for an average sized garden $150 seems like a reasonable amount. This guy had a ton of property (as potential new clients may) and wanted 3 sides of his property line totally landscaped. I had done 2 sections just to feel him out, then he asked for the third. It sounded good so I went for it. With perennials for us here in CT it's pretty easy to price. You have x amount of perennials, regardless of what they are, for $x. My problem arose with shrubs. Since he had some troublesome/difficult areas, I really had to do a fair amount of research as to shrubs, and the prices for shrubs really run the gammut. I'm just not sure how to be fair to all potential clients as well as myself. It's a lot of time to invest if someone doesn't go for it. I totally agree that having the client value the job done as much as we value getting the job is the most important. We've done work for people before who just don't care. That being said, I wouldn't be too upset if we didn't get the job as I can obviously see he doesn't value us. The thing that bites me is the amount of time I spent in it. I feel like the potential client can't really see what we're capable of unless we provide them with an accurate quote. That being said...we were thinking if a design was real complex we might put a higher price tag on it. If someone goes for a job, we always put the design fee as a deposit toward the job. So, that being the case, we were thinking that if someone were serious, they wouldn't mind paying say $300 or whatever for a design as if they go for it, that $300 goes toward the job, design fee essentially waived.
Does this make sense or is it totally outrageous? I just want to be fair to the clients as well as us. The only time we really get a design fee is when we don't get the job.

[PSUscaper]

"It sounded good so I went for it. With perennials for us here in CT it's pretty easy to price. You have x amount of perennials, regardless of what they are, for $x. My problem arose with shrubs. Since he had some troublesome/difficult areas, I really had to do a fair amount of research as to shrubs, and the prices for shrubs really run the gammut"

After hearing this, I have some questions. How long have you been in business?

As for plant selection, why are shrubs harder to select for difficult areas than perennials, which you have no problem with. This is very confusing, as perennials have the same requirements as shrubs. Are you only familiar with perennials?

How bout this 'real world' example on this topic. Lets say my truck needs to be repaired, maybe it needs new ball joints. If I took it to a garage, what do you think I would do if the mechanic said "well, I really know nothing about ball joints, so I'm gonna charge you 150 bucks to read up on them tonight, and then, tommorrow I'll give you a price"

I think I know what I would do.

There is a thing in this business called 'learning'. Some of us actually paid a lot of money, rediculous amounts of money, to drink beer, go to parties, and oh yeah, learn about shrubs.

On the other hand, some of us went out, sweated a lot, got dirty, got paid a 'little bit' of money to plant some 'shrubbie' to only come back and replace that 'shrubbie' with a 'spirea japonica' and walked away without that 'litle bit' of money but, a 'little bit' of knowledge to boot.

My point here don't get discouraged. I remember spending hours and hours drawing, coloring, and re-drawing, re-coloring, re-designing a mail box planting because at the time, it was a 'big job'. I then remember not even getting the job. Now, I go through my old files and laugh at myself for what I use to do.

[agla]

You definitely have to price your designs based on the amount of work involved. If you are not sure, give them a design price quote for a portion of the job that you feel you can comfortably do for that price. Then you can adjust the next design phase based on how the first part goes.

I like to write up a little narrative of exactly what I am going to do for the price of the design. I will describe what limits of area of the property, the levelof detail in the plan, how many times I will meet with them, how many times I will revise it, how many copies they will get, and even how big a sheet of paper and in what scale it will be drawn. There is also a description of a few other things that I will provide for additional hourly fees and that anything more will be billed hourly (rates are listed). You'd be amazed how well these people stick to the contract to avoid extra fees. It really cuts back on nonsense because it makes all those things that people do to get you that eat up your profit become extra expenses for them. So, you either make more money, or they don't ask you to do them (almost always the latter).

It is just like writing a landscape install contract. You make sure that there is no way anyone can justify that you are not providing the service that you contracted to do. You would not throw in an extra half dozen trees if someone asked you to and no one asks you two because it says how many in the contract.

The key to it is a contract that describes what the client has to do for the extras and making it very clear what constitutes an extra. Don't do anything without a signed contract and a deposit. Also, state that the balance is due upon receiving the plans (no ticky, no shirty). Mail them the quote for doing the construction after you present and get paid for the plan. They are two separate things and should be treated as such. One is a design that has a price. The second is a free estimate that you do afterwards (even if you do it prior to giving them the plan, don't send it until after). You don't want your install price influence them to not pay for the design, but you want the anticipation of getting that price quote to make them close the first deal.

I used to wonder why they made us take psychology in landscape architecture. I no longer wonder. These things work very, very, well.

[TrickyDick]

I do design stuff very close to how agla describes though I'm still fine tuning the system. I often charge by the hour, or at least I tell people I charge by the hour, but in reality I end up spending WAY more time on the design then I charge anyone for. Why? Because I am still on the steep part of the learning curve for some of this stuff and I take design work as an opportunity to learn new things. But I don't charge people for the time I spend learning unless thiers is a unique situation. So I'm with PSU. Don't worry too much about the time you spent learning something new. But I'm also with agla on the idea of making Design and Installation two seperately contracted services.

This is a little off topic but...

The second is a free estimate that you do afterwards (even if you do it prior to giving them the plan, don't send it until after). You don't want your install price influence them to not pay for the design, but you want the anticipation of getting that price quote to make them close the first deal.

I don't get that part. If you don't include a budget in the design process isn't there a pretty good chance that you are wasting everyone's time and money by doing a fifty thousand dollar design for someone with a thirty thousand dollar budget or vice versa?

[agla]

I never ask what the budget is. To me the budget is defined by what they are asking for and by listening carefully and reading between the lines. It is not a hard number, but if someone is talking about 200 face feet of stone wall, 600 sf of bluestone patio, and big pergolas it tells me a different story than if they keep telling me "we're not millionaires, you know", and talking about ways to cut corners. Its not hard numbers, but you know what to do.

My belief is to show them what they want and then have them deal with the reality of what it costs. The result is that you never disappoint in the design phase, you don't have to spend hours and hours calculating as you design, and once they see it they usually come up with the money if they want it bad enough. Anything short of that makes them feel like you did not give them what they want even if it is on budget.

Ever go car shopping and spend more money than you wanted to because once you took it for a test drive, you knew you wanted it and you were probably not going to find another like it for less? Do you say "what do you have for $15,000? Or do you say I want a low mieage F150 extended cab 4x4 with under 20k miles .... for $15k?

Either way, if you really want that truck, you are going to pay $20k or you won't get to test drive it and have to settle for less. Chances are that the salesman is going to find out what you really want and get you to test drive that $20k truck knowing that once you are horny for it, you'll find a way to buy it if you can. In the end you are happy and so is he. Why should it bedifferent with a landscape? Give them what they ask for, so they either rise to it, or they are the ones who determine they need to cut it back.

[sandim]

Wow, good advice all around.
PSU...we have only been in business one year. We're going on our second. There has been a major learning curve so I don't mind about that. I AM more familiar with perennials than I am some shrubs. This particular guy wanted a privacy planting around his whole border and it already had quite a few deciduous trees. He was pretty fanatical about utilizing his entire property, to the point where a large area was behind some white pines and unless he actually went there (I designed a path from a different part of his property to lead your eye there) he would never see it. I found it challenging to find tall evergreen shrubs that grow in the shade. Also, because the perimiter was so large, I wanted to give him some variety. I try to solve "problems" by making it look like there never was a "problem" just an area to be landscaped.
True, I didn't go to school for landscaping, I have my degree in fine arts, which is admittedly a far cry from landscaping. I did go through the master gardener course as well, also not truly landscaping school. I've been personally landscaping (more gardening truly) for years, but my partner has been landscaping professionally for 11 years.
I have no problem by learning, that's not the problem at all. I totally feel that I am capable of producing one rockin' landscape...right plant right place...form following function, color, texture, etc. I know I am not experienced enough to truly charge for my time, I'm wicked psyched I actually get paid to learn.
My real question is how to really charge appropriately. I appreciate the encouragement. The learning curve is always so obvious after you've learned the hard way.
I like what agla and TrickyDick said about the two separate contracts. That makes a lot of sense.
I also really like agla's description of how to describe what they get for the money. I've truly just been using the "design fee" as an incentive to get the job. I guess I feel if people are going to go with us, designing it is part of the job.
I think I will charge based on the complexity. That should separate the truly interested from the fishing for information people.
Not that I am one to talk, but there is a happy medium between TrickyDick and agla. We never ask budget. We let the client tell us what they want (garden, patio, complete landscape, no clue) and we'll toss around some ideas with them. We always do the best design we can for the area. We tell people that they can modify however they want, but it's easier for us to take things out, then add things in. We tell them the design is sort of a rough draft. Once they decide to go forward, we go over it in more detail with them until they are happy with it. It's rarely more than one to two revisions. Our thought is we don't want people to think we are designing something to the max of their budget. We try to let them tell us what they can and can't do. We generally get a pretty good feel just by talking to them.
Thanks so much guys! It's so nice to be able to ask questions to experienced people. I really really appreciate all your input. Thanks again for the advice and encouragement.

[mrusk]

Here is how i deal with stuff like this. I am not really a planting guy. I know next to nothing about plants. But on these larger jobs, the client wants to deal with 1 guy, so i worked out a deal with my local whole sale nursury.

I am working on a proposal for a big job. Full property. Gunite pools, retaining walls, 2200 sqft decking, lighting, irrigation, plantings, fence, pillar, etc, etc, etc.

I made a design with the pool and all the hardscapes in it. My guy from the nursey comes out and walks the property with me and looks at my design. Then he gives me a ballpark # for plant material. When i met with the client to go over my proposal, i show them my hardscape design and pricing, and also give them ball park numbers on the planting, irrigation and lighting (since the plantings effect the last 2). If they like what i have to say and give me the nod, i take a 2k deposit and the full planting plan gets design by my guy along with the irrigation and lighting plan.

The plant designer will even met with me and the client to go over the plan once its designed.

Now this works for me in my situation, but it might not work for everyone. Even if i could design my own plantings, i'd doubt i would design a 600+ plant design for free.

Maybe i am crazy i do not know. I try to look at my shortcomings and try to turn them into positives. Now instead of me just selling the job, i have the plant designer helping me.

Matt

[TrickyDick]

I usually don't start with a budget. I usually ask and most people don't know and that's fine. So I come up with a preliminary plan that includes a detailed budget for the proposed design. Then I show it to the client and talk about changes. We can change, add or subtract things at that point based on all the factors involved, including price. Seems to me that most people don't have a budget but they know when they see a number that is too high.

Maybe it's because I'm a lot better at designing and building than I am at selling but I can't imagine going through that process without having a number at the end. I would also think that helping the client develope and refine thier budget would be give them a lot of piece of mind.

On the other hand I'm guessing agla has sold a couple hundred more designs than I have.

[mrusk]

I do think that asking budgets won't always work in high end work. Alot of people have no idea what it takes to landscape their 1.5 acer property that there 1.2 million dollar house sits on.

[GLAN]

I know I am limiting myself.........and I do it on purpose.....Why?.........Only my inner second identity knows.

Most of our work is done for existing maintenance customers.......I am on the property.......when chatting with customers I am shooting ideas across their bow, hoping something will catch.....

When it does.........have never asked for a design fee........I already have a job......how much of a job? Well, that depends on what has been discussed and or what I have in my head as for ideas and a plan that gets translated on paper.

I have done work outside my core customer list.........and the better jobs have been referrals or people that know of our work, so I pretty much already have a job sold..........Cold calls, never got many of those.......getting more in the last couple years.......All, I was only spinning my wheels.

Then last year I began to screan the calls more........And for those cold calls I told them it there would be a fee for a design and estimate. "Click"........OK that saved me from that loser..........but I had a couple that wanted to know more........1 I actualy negotiated a fair price for the design/estimate that they were looking for.......Included that fee into the job if we got the go ahead........turned out I got the job......

Guess where I learned the importance of screaning the calls better?


Here at GTX


And I began feeling better about what I did and who I am....just in that it has had it's effects on every aspect of my business, and it's been nothing but possitive.


Been screaning calls asking more and more questions of those that call.........pretty much cut out the wild goose chases and those that want to pay for a design.......I am all theirs..........those that fit in well with our maintenance plan.....we're there for them.

[PSUscaper]

I'm right with you on the call screenig Glan. I live and work in a very rural area. Many of my estimates are 10 to 30 miles away. Between the 30 minutes to a hour of just driving back and forth to the estimate to the $3 dollar a gallon gas price, how can you afford to just randomly drive around to a 'possible' estimate?

I screen the calls very well know. I have a set order of questions asked, I make sure they are aware of the design fee, and I make sure I get a idea of budget.

For some guys, maybe not as big of a problem. I know contractors who don't travel more than a 5 mile radius from their office for 80% of their work. I guess they can get away with going on questionable estimates. I find it to be a big waste of time and money.

[sandim]

I think (and my two cents isn't even really worth 2 cents) that if you let people know how you operate up front...$150 (or however much you want to place on it) for a design fee which may or may not go toward the final bill, is a good way to screen calls. People won't go for it if they're not serious. Life is too short, and gas too expensive to waste time with people who aren't serious. (Hence the frustration in my original post)
It's very hard when you're a small business and every dollar counts. Makes you (or at least us) want the job that much more.
Unfortunately where most of our jobs are, most people have $150 to piss away no problem (wish I could say the same!). Although this job was far more labor intensive, this is the third time this has happened to us. Hmmm, learning curve anyone??
We are also a good 30-40 minutes away from our job sites, and I think many people just don't understand the time, effort and expense in going to see them, and producing ideas for them.
Guess all is fair in business and war. If it was easy, everyone would do it, right?

[sandim]

PSU...if you don't mind my picking your brain... what are some of the questions you use for screening?
Perhaps incorporating better screening instead of being excited about the call, hoping we get it, that would solve a larger amount of my frustration.
So happy I found GTX!! What an invaluable place for information and ideas. Particularly nice seeing as I'm such a newbie!

Anyone know what happened to spring??? It's supposed to snow here tonight!