[Bill Schwab]

I have been batting a few ideas around in my head regarding sales for a while now. I feel we have reached that point where somewhere, someone has to come on and take up some slack.

As a boss/owner, J.O.A.T.M.A.N., I am multi taleneted and love to take on new challenges, but, there is a time when all the hats one wears take focus off the target. I can sell really well, and, I can also run crews as well. The dreaded inside part of the business I can do, but, it is not my fortee, yet, I make it the most important part of my day, like it or not.

So, the delema comes with do I hire a field person, or, do i hure a sales person. I'll tell you my reasons for why sales, and am looking for answers for pay structure.

Field persons in many ways become complacent with what they do, and, often develope a that is good enough attitude. Also, field persons can be the first to throw you labor way off budget. If I keep out in the field and the operations part, I can more directly keep a thumb on labor. Well trained bilingual field personel start at $25.00 per hour, and can make in upwards of $100,000 per year.

Sales on the other hand, is sales. If I hire a retired, or older landscape foreman, someone who knows the business and has good people skills, he would have to show me his numbers before he made his pitch, so, those numbers were profitable ones. There would have to be a system of checks and balances in play so that person was compensated well, and so was the company. Too often I see sales people such as those at Home Depot giving away the store simply so they can get thier commision. So there would have to be a something to keep it all
in check.
My objective with this move is to

A) better control situations so they don't become bad situations, this not effecting our cash flow in a negative manor.
B) Eventually, have more free time to be able to expand the company, we want to find some land and build small tracts of homes. It would be beneficial for all to have a home completely landscaped before an escrow closed, so, we can sell them a $300,000.00 job and it would only cost them $450.00 more per month.
C) To eventually, step into the office and see the operations from the inside and work toward being able to reitre, at least in the sense that I call work right now.

So, does anyone have ideas for a fair pay structure?

[NC Lawnscapes]

SHEW you Put alot on the table didnt ya. well wen it comes to sales you will have to come up with a DRAW amount to pay the person. And then you have to decide on the precentage to pay them, per contract signed.

I myself would much rather have a well versed Crew leader Or forman to hadle the crews and handle my Selling and upsales and customer contacts my self.

How big is your buisness ie how many cres and employess.

You said something about it not causing a negative cash flow. Will you offer insurance and other benifits will you figure each into there rate of pay?

As far as having a sales man you have to worry about the competing factor. Does your State STAND BEHIND a No compete clause. Meaning that If the one you hire Leaves your LCO and go to another that they cant contact your customers. If so great but that dont meant that they cant give there new company leads And KNOW what you are being paid.



Will this sales man know anything about design and be required to do designs. If so that would be on another payscale.


Also How is Ca this time of year because If I can get 100k a year as a Forman or crew leader Ill sell out now and move out there and go to work for you. Just give me a few months to freshen up on my Espanol

[PSUscaper]

I'm still stuck on this $25 an hour and up foreman thing too........I know CA is expensive, but NJ has to be dam close, and I don't see it here. I would like to hear what your definition of, or should I ask what kind of skills these people asking for 100k a year have in CA. Yes, I know foremen making 100k with a few (very few) companies, but these guys have been working for the same place for 15+ years and basically, are one with the owner. Even at some of the biggest companies, a very good Landscape architect/salesmen is maxing out at 150k.....and that is a much more skilled position. I just can't see where this number is coming from, besides union wages. It seems like you aren't looking to hire a foreman, but are looking to hire another owner!

as for the dilemna.....My gut response is get off the job and do sales yourself. If you think a foremen can cost you money in the field, then I will have to ask how you assume a salesman won't cost you money in the office. Yah, the foremen makes a mistake on the job and you lose a days work maybe..........the salesmen makes a mistake on a 300k estimate and you lose 60k.....the choice is simple to me.

I'm not saying you have to leave the job site completely, but a few visits a day should be all you need to make sure things are running right. .......unless you are telling us that everyone you have working for you is a complete idiot that can't be trusted...which I don't think you are.

My overall thought is to either hire or promote someone to take on more responsibility in the field, so you can leave more. I think everyone will have the same answer on this.

If you aren't happy in the office, and want to be on the job, then all I can say is perhaps you need to rethink your future plans of expansion. I can't see doing the type of volume you envision and still be able to be on the job site....it just doesn't work that way.

[site]

I guess if I were you I would consider which job you like better- sales and estimating, or operations management. Once you have decided start looking for someone to do the one you like less.
It seems to me that you are doing some pretty complicated jobs and cranking them out. It's going to be pretty hard to replace yourself there. Good luck even finding someone competent. If you can find a good salesman tie his commision to the NET profits. If you give him a percentage of the gross he will lowball all over town to build his own income. It doesn't matter how much you pay the top guys, as long as they are making you enough to justify their pay.

[Bill Schwab]

With the pay thing...You get you run of average buffoons who, attempt to sell you on they are worth that amount of money. Then, you have a select handfull who will consciensiously take charge of the job, produce an end product you can be proud of, and, treat the customer as they are thier own.

Thier skills would entail being a master plumbers, and having full knowledge of codes and applications, or at least have the intelligence to have operations run the requirements prior to progression of work. The same woulkd apply for electrical work. 120 and 220V applications. Have a CLT or equivelant. They would have skills in brick and segmental paving, and a vast knowledge of soils and SRW applications. They would have a valid drivers license, with no dings on the record. They would leave thier human issues at home and prepare to give the company 110%. They will know irrigation, and drainage issues. Have vast knowledge of plants and soil amendments. Have a vision to complete award winning projects in a timely profitable manor. They better not smoke on our jobs or in our trucks, and not get caught hanging thier hog on the side of a customers house.
First and foremost, they need to think about what is going on with thier project a week ahead of the time while running multiple jobs.
I also would expect them to know how to, or be open to learn, how to run various types of labor and back saving machinery, and, care for that machinery as it was thier own.

There are alot of fakers out there, if I hired a crew foreman, and pay them the amount of money they can command here, I want the real deal. It is far easier, I think, to hire a sales person, and, so long as I reviewed every bid brought our way, with photos and a job description, I could tell if his numbers are close. And, tieing his salary into the net, not the gross is the only way to make that person become part of the team and work in sync with us, rather than all for himself, as with commisions reflecting from the gross.
When you tie someones pocket book to thier production schedule, they learn rather quickly what to do, and how to bid, or they move along. We pay our work force bonus incentives for beating the clock right now, and that bonus is adjusted off our net, not gross sales. Gross really means nothing if there is no or too little net in my opinion.....

I plan on entering the office, I'm just not fond of sitting around all day inside. I could build an outside office to fix that.

Please anyone else, feel free to chime in, these ideas are what we will be going with when we make this move.

[agla]

It is much easier to find and manage a qualified design/sales person than a project manager when jobs are high quality and of a complex nature.

I think that Bill's jobs fit this category. The jobs are built a certain way and the help is managed a certain way. When you replace yourself with a project manager there are lots of things that you take for granted that are very difficult for that person to overcome. The first is that you answer to yourself and yourself only when you make a decision. This person has to weigh everything against his perception of what he thinks you want him to do. That is a lot harder than it sounds and causes a certain amount of second guessing. From your perspective it seems that there is only one clear response that is the right one.

The project manager also has to come in to a new job situation where the existing crew is much more familiar with where they are, how you do things, and they view the project manager as someone that bypassed them without any right to the job. That person has to balance being in control and not fostering resentment and bitterness from the crew. It is not easy.

No matter who you get, the results will not be the same as yours and it breaks the continuity of your work. That is more true if you have to replace people at this position.

As for the designer/sales person, this is much easier because you can review his/her work before it gets out. Pricing jobs out can be made very quantifiable with little guess work. You can influence the design in style, materials, and everything else while using very little of your time.

When you have an outstanding reputation and portfolio, your biggest challenge is the built work rather than the design and sales as long as it is consistant with what you already do. The built work sells your jobs as long as the design/sales person knows what you are all about, knows what he is talking about, is confident, and exudes that confidence in your clients.

The hardest part of this level of landscaping is managing the construction and executing the job in the form of a built landscape.

I do design work for an outstanding design/build contractor. Rarely, but sometimes, the client will have someone else build one of our plans. Every design is paid for whether it is built by us or someone else, that is not the point. The point is that the jobs don't look anything like those built by our company. The reason is not that they changed anything, but the lack of quality control from selecting plants, to placement, to planting technique, to hardscape materials, to craftsmanship, .... The design was the same, the execution was not.

I have worked both of these positions. Sometimes one, Sometimes the other, and sometimes both. I can tell you that I believe that you are much more important in executing the job than in selling it at this stage of your company's life. Y

Either way, you will still have to manage whichever position you hire for. Managing a designer/sales person takes a lot less day to day time than managing a project manager.

That is what I have experienced from the view of the person being hired.

[PSUscaper]

Bill.........that is one TALL order for a foremen.

Master plumber? Electrician? Irrigation? SRW expert? and....doesn't smoke!!!

I could care less if the guy smoked 5 cigarettes at once all day.......if he could do all that, and I would ONLY have to pay him 100k.....then I would hire him, give him the keys to the office, and tell him to send the checks to a island in the carribean which is where'd I'd be because I wouldn't have a job anymore.

I think you need to first start thinking 'team'......as in a group of people who work together on one task. You're looking for a head coach who dosn't just coach the offense, but the defense ....who doesn't just coach, but who kicks, passes, runs, tackles, does funny dances in the endzone.......who doesn't just coach, but drives the bus from game to game, while doubling as the team trainer and fixes injuries.......who doesn't just coach, but is.................well.....YOU!..........lol!

Have you thought about buying another company out and trying to get the owner to work for you????? Because the only person you are going to get with experience like that is someone who was in business for themself..

And if you need someone with that much knowledge, then you better expect them to want more than just a paycheck....they are gonna want a piece of the business. For if they are smart enough to know all that stuff, then they are surely smart enough to know what their knowledge is worth, which may develop into more than you own.......which brings me to the point of, are you willing to give up some of your own power in return for growth?

And I will say that salesmen have their own array of problems.....I just started doing work for a company this week who lost almost 2 million in sales this year because their architect/salesmen couldn't handle the pressure and left them cold and dry in the middle of the season due to 'personal' reasons.

I think its Dr. Covey who talks about the switch from 'supervisor' to 'manager'......i like this idea because many contractors always talk about this idea of 'working on your company, not in it' and believe that being a 'supervisor' is considered working 'on' the company. Its' not. It's still working in it.

You've already said it yourself. If you hire a salesmen, you are going to 'review every bid he brought to you'......that's not management.....that's supervision.

I believe that a sales team is going to be needed in the not so future, but firmly believe that before that should really be engaged, you should work on having your jobs to the point where you are 'managing' them.......not 'supervising' them. Instead of hiring one key person, I would start delegating the power out, and develop a team of independent units that accomplishes the same goal as this 'superman' foreman you have been trying to hire.

Work on developing/hiring employees who can perform one task/a few task very well. Work on developing a system, or back to football, a 'game plan' that can be followed on every job that will achieve the same results as if you were there. Once this is done, then you can start to attack the sales end, the office end, and the new growth end, developing employees and systems the same way you did in the installation end that produce the same results you would expect if you were personally doing them.

[justgardens]

Bill- You want another YOU! We all do. I could work wonders with another me. I still say sales is the way to go for the owner if they are stepping into just one position. No one sells Just Gardens better than me. However, that said with what you are wanting to do I don't think that person you described is out there. I hope you can prove me wrong. Hire a good sales/designer and you stay on the job site. With everything you have your hands in to you MUST be there for quality control or there won't be any sales. By the way have you been eating your Wheaties? That's a pretty ambitious agenda you have for your company.

[Bill Schwab]

My point is, with the money that well talented leaders can command out here, I expect then to do things better and more efficiently than I could. I forgot to add, I am an aircraft certified welder as well, so, the person should also be able to weld for that money.... And, I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
Now ask me if that is realisitic, and I will answer probably not. Putting together all the players of the team and managing those talents is the answer there, and part of the problem is me letting go of some responsibilty.

[Stonehenge]

Bill, that does sound like a tall order. Are you really looking for someone who can do plumbing, electrical, welding, hort, hardscape, masonry and everything else? I have to wonder why, if that person has that much knowledge, why they wouldn't add that extra hat and run their own show? I think a well-talented leader is a well-talented leader, not a mini-Bill JOATMON.

I do have to tell you that I admire how you focus in on what's best for the business and tackle that, no matter if it's part of the job you like or not (you mentioned spending time in the office, which you don't like, for the sake of the business). And being able to keep an eye on labor makes sense the way you're describing it. I've seen it myself this year and last, trying to jump to the next level, focusing more on sales than production, only to have to put out production-related fires when things are going too slowly, or things are done wrong.

And I would think a designer/salesperson might be easier to find - that is, being able to tell if they really are the stuff. You might be able to get someone from a larger firm who longs for the simple life without political jockeying, or someone who's retired but still enjoys doing that kind of work.

As for what is fair compensation - I don't think I could even provide an educated guess as to what someone in CA could earn doing either of those jobs.