[justgardens]

The September issue of Smart Money magazine has just given us all another boost (That's two front pages in less than 1 year). "Boost Your Homes Value 30%" They talk about landscaping, hardscaping and lighting among other things to boost the value of your home. See page 69 and make copies to hand out your customers!

[Bill Schwab]

Julie:

What absolutley amazes me is the value people place on landscaping, along with the mind set that all services are commodities. What I mean is they will drop $100K on a job, only to let an illegal alien who most likely has no insurance, little education, and no real clue as to what needs to be done maintain the job after it is turned over.

That job which cost so much can be made to look as though nothing was done in 6 months or less. On similar notes, city parks that cost a million dollars plus are left in the hands of affirmative action workers, having no training as well.

I'm going to run off and grab a copy of Smart Money for my portfolio of sales tools, and I can only hope the mindset of many homeowners changes. Well, let mke scratch that....As long as they let the landscape run down hill, we can just come in and redo it all for a nominal fee of course.!

[jwholden]

Bill,

I couldn't agree with you more about people not understanding the value of maintaining their landscape. I love to discuss how to maintain a clients new landscape and watch thier eyes glaze over.

Short term, any shmoe can maintain a landscape because it takes a year or two for it to go to pot. However, after three or four years of haphazerd weeding, improper (if any) pruning, no maintenance of edges, and ornamental grassses that were never cut back; it wasn't worth getting the work done in the first place.

My line when discussing maintenace is,"Imagine your garden looking as good in the future at it does today (the day we finished installing it)". I only maintain a very small percent of lancscapes I install, and that is fine . I just wish I could find a way to convince my clients the service is more than worth it.

[justgardens]

I couldn't agree more. Although I really dislike the maintenence end of my work I love coming back to the ones we have maintained since day one. They are so easy to do because they were kept up. I have charged some people as much as a new landscape to "cleanup" the mess they have. I have also gone by to see a past job to cross it off my list of drive- bys because it looks so bad. Sometimes I don't get people. Just yesterday I went to replace a plant for a job done last year and it was a mess. I wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money to let it go so badly.

[Dale Wiley]

We do a lot of municipal install work. The specs are strict and usually closely followed unless you pay off the project manager.

We finish, turn the project over to the municiapl people, and it goes to s--- in a matter of a couple of months. Really pisses my guys off, since I am so adamant about quality installs.

[cutntrim]

There are some companies out there that do know how to maintain properties. My company for example has been in maintenance for twelve years and I've only recently gotten more involved with installations.

Looking at it from the other side of the fence, I can't believe how many landscape install companies pay zero attention to what will be involved in maintaining a garden after they install it. There are tons of landscapes out there that are way overplanted - tight spacing, too many varieties in too small a space, and plants that outgrow their area in a few years, or require constant pruning to keep them in check. High maintenance gardens may be fine for avid gardeners, but most people don't fall into that category.

Something as simple as allowing for the width of a lawn mower, or access to turf areas can be overlooked by some installers since they'll never have to maintain it. I remember a customer with a pool area down a flight of stone steps, and there was turf down there. We had to carry a push mower up and down the stairs each time to cut the 200 sq.ft. of grass down there.

So, yes there are plenty of homeowners that let their landscapes go to pot, and lots of blow-and-go maintenance dudes out there, but keep in mind that it goes both ways. Landscapes should look better a few years down the road as they mature, and design/install guys oughta take into account the level of maintenance that'll be required and whether or not their clients will be willing and/or able to provide it, and scale their installs accordingly.

[Bill Schwab]

Points well taken. I think the best way to help with maintenance from the design end is to park an achitects rear end in a maintenance truck for a few months. In school, it is often taught that the more complex, the better. Often, the reality is to K.I.S.S.. Simple things like 6' radiuses rather than 90° angles and planting based on the size a plant is intended to be would help. Along with the design/install should also be the instructions from the architect to maintain the "design integrity". This should be incorporated with the skill and mamagement of the mioantenance contractor. When contractors make urban assualt balls and hockey pucks along with other inate objects from plants intended for texture and color, frankly, unless it is clearly intended as such, it makes me sick.

[justgardens]

Cut In Trim...Again I agree. I always ask the width of the mowing deck on the customers mower. I landscape accordingly and keep in mind the lines of the bed. I hate getting off the mower at home to do tight spaces by hand mower and can only assume any one else mowing a property does too. It is all what I call part of a low maintenence design. I also tell all my clients that if a landscape looks "full" when it is done they have over paid and will be pulling out plants in a few years. It looks great to start but what about down the road? Every landscape should be designed and planned for long term. Unfortunately I have found in my area some landscape installers are clueless about plant selection and spacing. Using small 1 gallon plants that are put tight together and will have to be moved or pruned so hard every year they may as well be a thorn in their sides. I maintain many display gardens at my home and am keenly aware of how important it is to select and plant carefully. That is why I don't offer maintenece on landscapes unless I have installed them anymore. Over planting and lack of time, Because so many landscapes are over planted as you said. we no longer bid cleanups by the job anymore because of this but by the hourly rate per man hour.

I was a wholesale nursery last week and over heard a landscaper asking the person on the sales lot ( Note: not a landscaper or designer...a salesperson) what plant would look good for this install he was doing. That is scary! At another job this week we were adding to an existing bed and had to untie poly string and burlap from around previuosly planted Dogwoods. It was so far up the stem it was sticking out of the ground that we could visiably see the poor planting. This was done by an old, established nursery/landscaper. Even some the old guys ( and women)need to learn the basics!

[VoodooChile]

Great points from both sides of the fence. I especially think cutntrim is right on to call design/build firms to task for over-planting and using too many varieties.

Clients want maximum color and low-maintenance and providing both is a real challenge. Too often I think we give in on the first request, cramming as many different plants as we can into way too small a space, and the client, who can't tell good from bad, throws up their hands in confusion and it all goes to pot.

Follow-up maintenance in the first few months after an install will make a huge difference in a garden/landscape's success. We come in, disturb the soil, bringing new weed seeds to the surface, amend and fertilize to create a perfect medium for weed germination and establishment, then water like mad to insure a bumper crop of pests, but never come back to pluck the weeds that we caused to grow???

In our twelve years as landscapers we have always included three follow-up maintenance visits to insure the garden is properly weeded during establishment, that plants are adequately watered, and that our product looks its best while the clients and neighbors still remember our name. It's a great way to keep your foot in the door, as well as control quality. The expense is nominal, and I think the guys appreciate going back and seeing how the fruits of their labor are maturing.

This year I have grown pretty self-critical of my perennial work, feeling like it is too busy and complex for anyone but the avid-gardener to appreciate and maintain. I am trying to transition, with Spiderlilly's guidance, to a simpler style, that is based on plant communities versus the color maximization principle...

Finally, I think the nursery industry contributes to the design flaws and client pressure with a steady stream of supposedly new and improved plants, while in fact, to quote Roy Diblik of Northwind Perennial Farm,

We don't need more new plants; we need to learn how to use the ones we have.

[justgardens]

What a great idea to include a 3 visit followup in your bid. I LIKE it! It is always a problem after disturbing the soil, the weeds. I have a client we did a big job for recently and talked her out of fabric as we used in phase 1. I just don't trust peolpe to take care of it properly. I usually come back to weedy fabric. Now she is disappointed because of the weeds. I think I will followup (for free) this time for the next 3 weeks and make her especially happy as she is a good client. I will be revamping my bids from now on to include this service. I think my clients will love it and of course we will come out smelling like a "Rose". That's why I love this forum, all this experience coming together teaching us old dogs new tricks!

[jwholden]

Umm...follow up maintainance is going to (1) make my bids look overpriced by the time we add that time to the estimate and (2) I don't have time to go back to every install, especially for free, and spend an hour or two with the guys again for free. I always do follow up drive by's, even years later, and am more than happy to respond to any questions my clients have. I'm installing a unique landscape that is definitely not what the other 80 to 90% of the guys out there are installing.

Planning for maintainance. Well, in my opinion, duh!!!

I worked on the maintenance side for my first 10 years and have incorporated alot of lessons I learned into my designs. Especially relating to plants that I vow to not use again because they just spread or grow too fast (Pachysandra, careful with Miscanthis, I hate large shrub junipers that need to be hacked yearly to be kept at the right size).

One thing ALL of my landscapes have is edges that the lawnmower can move around without any weedwacking needing to be done. There are no 90 degree corners of 3' wide tongues of grass that pissed me off when I mowed.

Another line I use when discussing maintaining gardens, which clients are too quick to ignore, is that it's like changing the oil in your car. You can maintain your gardens on a regular basis at a reasonable price or wait until they are way out of hand and pay an arm and a leg and live with overgrown ugly gardens until that day.

Fact - No garden that is ignored an entire year, no matter how well designed, is going to look good at the end of that year. (Disregarding a japanese garden with all dwarf conifers in stone mulch, and I don't think that looks good from day one.)

[cutntrim]

Voodoo mentioned scaling back on his perennial garden designs, and that reminded me that the most common calls for help I get from homeowners is to regain control over perennial gardens gone wild. I've seen dozens and dozens of gardens that were once (10-20yrs ago) probably beautiful multi-textured, and multi-colored landscapes, that have since turned into something out of a Jurassic Park movie. Homeowners (and sometimes myself), can't even tell where one plant type ends and the other begins, nevermind determining what's what anymore, or telling apart the weeds from the perennials in some cases.

So far, in the limited number of gardens I've installed, I'm conscious not to include too many perennials for the reasons mentioned above. Again, unless the customer is an experienced gardener, or will be employing one, then you're just asking for trouble down the road when putting in a plethora of perennials. Sometimes less is more.

I think in many cases, annuals can be used effectively to give some color to the garden in place of overuse of perennials. Petunias, impatiens, geraniums, etc... are within the grasp and experience levels of most any gardener/homeowner and as a bonus you can change up the appearance on an annual (or even more frequent) basis. The price of having to replace annuals each season is also not an issue for most of those having installations done on their properties anyway.

P.S. Glad to hear that some landscapers out there do think of lawn cutting when designing their jobs. Thinking about turf requirements may be something that some installers look down upon, but it often represents the largest amount of required maintenance, and is frequently the most visible aspect of a home's landscape.

[VoodooChile]

Hey John,
Look at it this way. Do you have time to do estimates for people you have never worked for, who might be kicking tires, who merely might be trolling for ideas?

Then you definitely have time to show your face to clients who have already ponied up the cash, are most likely impressed and pleased with your services, and for whom you probably have generated a few new ideas, beyond the work you have already done, to improve their property and landscape.

Yeah, it's an expense, one that will seperate your bid from you competitors, but it is also an opportunity to distinguish your company from the rest, to impress on potential clients how concerned you are about the success and longevity of their landscape, an opportunity to discuss all the ways your company is different (soil ammendment, plant selection, owner operated, attention to detail, follow-up maintenace included) from the rest.

On a typical foundation planting, you are talking approximately $500 total for the labor to do three follow-up weed throughs. If your potential client is serious about purchasing landscape services, the money is there to cover that extra expense.

Julie, wish I could claim the follow-up maintenance idea as my own, but have to give credit where credit is due. I owe that one to my former business partner who I first began landscaping with back in the early nineties.

The fact that we would maintain what we installed, landed us some of our best clients.

[justgardens]

VooDoo I was thinking along the lines of 2 people for 2 hours as a followup. There should be limited amounts to do early on. Drive time is minimal for us as our jobs can only be at the most 1/2 apart in the worst case senario. I charge $23.00 per man per hour plus material ( Spray , pre-emergent, ect.) Costing me only at tops $150.00 per followup. My costs would be considerably cheaper.

[Green4Me]

great discussion, would like to find out more about this design idea of plant communities, any references I can check out?