[Inspired]

I'd like to offer a water conservation upgrade option to our Irrigation customers.

Do any of you have experience with soil moisture or evapotranspiration sensors that connect to the controller and could increase valve run times on dry days and shorten or halt irrigation on wet days?

I'm somewhat familiar with the Calsense products but the cost is very high for residential customers. I'm looking for something in the hundreds of dollars rather then thousands of dollars range.

Have any of you stepped into this area yet at all? I've installed rain sensors for years but it rarely rains here. Moisture or ET sensors would make more sense because customers tend to overwater. ET information in the paper everyday is complicated by a very wide range of soil compositions here.

Any info would be helpful. I'll post what I find out if anyone is interested.

[TrickyDick]

I've never heard of that. It sounds like a really good idea on the surface but where do you put it/them. One for each zone? Moisture content is going to vary quite a bit on a property based on sun/shade, variations in soil type, plant species, etc. How's it work exactly?

[Daniel Hanson]

The best bet for residential clients is the Hydro Point Data Systems Weather Trak controller. They work amazingly well. I have them on 3 sites and they have worked out great for us.

http://www.hydropoint.com

[Inspired]

Yeah. The Irritrol Smart Dial and the Toro Intelli-Sense look interesting also. Same "Weather Trac" system. I like the idea of the Smart Dial module fitting right into a Rain Dial enclosure. You could retro fit past customers.

Daniel: Tell me about the systems you've installed them on. Residential? Commercial? Sprinklers? Drip? What is the climate like? Do the home owners mess up the program?

The reps here say nobody is really using them for residential systems. Mostly large commercial systems like apartment complexes, parks, etc.

[Daniel Hanson]

I have used them on commerical properties with traditional spray/rotor systems. I am out here in California (Los Angeles area) and they have worked quite well for us. This year we have had some interesting weather.... 80 degrees one day and 105 degrees the next. The sites that we have these controllers on have stayed consistently green while some of our other sites that have traditional controllers have had plenty of brown spots. Once they are initially set up there is no reason to mess with the programming. Overall I can't say enough good things about the product.

[Inspired]

So here is an update:

1: I installed a Smart Dial ET type controller at my house to watch and see what happens. I chose the Smart Dial because I already had a Rain Dial and the modules swap perfectly. Just pop out the Rain Dial module and snap in the Smart Dial. Except for the stickers on the outside The Smart Dial is the same unit as the Toro Intelli-sense and the HydroPoint ET. They all use the same Weather-Trak ET data. Rain Bird has an ET based add-on controller, The ET Manager, however they don’t offer the weather information in my area.

So far I’m using about maybe 25% less water. The weather here is changing and cooling quite a bit and the controller is changing right along with it. The plants are happy and I haven’t had to touch it once. Very cool.

2. I am looking at two moisture sensors. One from Dynamax, the Moisture Clik and one from Irrometer called the water switch. There are a few others but these two companies I have actually talked to. I plan on installing one of each on a separate valve on my system at home. It should be interesting to compare the watering frequency and duration.

I’ll post again when I get them in the ground.

[h20saver]

the irrometer water switch looks to be a good idea. However you'll need to adjust your controller to run every day. The water switch will block irrigation if it senses that soil has enough moisture. You'll have to play around with the dial setting on the water switch. Also, the input of the Water Switch goes into the sensor input of your controller, so if the sensor says no water, your controller cuts off all zones. So you can't use this for just one valve, unless your controller has a sensor input for each zone. I haven't seen this, but that could exist on very expensive pro or custom controllers.

For one valve, you'll need the WEM from irrometer. The WEM hooks up directly to the solenoid power line for a valve. It blocks the common if the moisture sensor senses enough moisture. The WEM costs more, about $200, but you can get individual valve or valve cluster control. Note: you'll need to put your controller on a seperate program to use this because you'll have to set your controller to irrigate every day, or more, to use this. You'll have to read the irrometer product use instructions very carefully.

The irrometer moisture sensor itself, at around $40, seems to be industry standard and seems to have proven itself over time.

Personally, I'm trying to determine if moisture sensors are better than ET data for optimum watering. You can't use both.

You mentioned that the ET controller is saving you 25%. That's all well and good, but you most likely were overwatering in the first place and maybe you could have saved that just by turning down your times on a non-ET controller. Most likely the ET controller still has you overwatering.

Can you say about how much your ET contoller, including all the componetry costs? Some of the ET manufactures also have data subscription fees. Does yours? My interest is in providing smart control at a price that most system owners will pay for. At this time, even after any rebate they still won't buy them.

If you have interest in a system that costs about $200 for both weather and seasonal control then please contact me for an idea, or just express an interest and I'll post it. (I'd post it, but only if requested because I don't think the board moderators like self-promotion. (not that I don't see it here on the board already ))

hope this helps,

[Inspired]

Well since there is interest in this thread, maybe I can catch you guys up on what I’ve done so far. For the last year I have used the Irritrol Smart Dial ET controller that uses the WeatherTrac system to acquire ET values every 24 hours. In my opinion is as follows:

Pros:
1. This technology is a huge step in the right direction. I think as irrigators and landscapers we must adjust our mind set to water conservation. Yes, I said that it was saving me about 25% and yes I was over watering. I think most people in this part of the country do. It might be interesting to note that plant growth dropped way off but with very little stress.

2. This is as close to a set-it and forget-it controller as there is available provided nothing changes with your landscaping. Any changes at all, like a few new plants, completely negates this advantage for the home owner.

Cons:
1. The start up cost seems expensive to the customer, although the total cost over the first year is actually even more (more on that in a minute). The replacement module cost was about 200.00 to me (contractor price, your price will depend on your price level at your supplier), the complete clock runs about 100.00 more then the standard outdoor Rain dial. Then the monitoring cost is 60.00 per year. In addition to the equipment and monitoring cost, the manufacturer suggests figuring two or three “fine tuning” visits into the cost.

2. The controller is way too different and complicated for the average maintenance guy to take control of. Nothing against maintenance guys, I think some experienced irrigation guys will have trouble with it. It’s a very different mind set from any clock they’ve seen before. Instead of watering minutes and watering days, you must think in terms of root depth and soil composition as it relates to percolation rates. I thought this would scare them and they would stay away from it. Nope. Somebody then has to pay for a number of service calls to reset the controller after it has been badly adjusted by the maintenance guy. The last thing you need is a customer calling you with a huge water bill after you recently installed this cool water “Smart” controller.

3. The program framework is highly structured so there is very little flexibility in the programming. The first problem you run into is most irrigation systems are very inefficient. This controller will expose every weakness in the system it is attached to. So you will be fudging the root depth and soil composition values a lot till you find a comfort zone. Then there is a part of the program where you must inter a Hi-ET time of day. That is the hottest or highest evaporation time of the day. In phoenix this is mid to late afternoon. The controller will automatically water during times of very high ET. This isn’t a good idea in the Phoenix area for plant health not to mention water conservation. Most of the water applied after 10:00 AM evaporates here. You have to fool the controller into thinking the Hi-ET time is like 1:00AM. Dumb. So they have a “cheat sheet” available to help you can fudge or fool your controller into watering they way you want it to. Frankly, if you have to produce a cheat sheet, well……

4. There is no history in the program. The program often changes everyday based upon daily ET values. No one knows how much it actually watered yesterday, only what it will water today and what it might water for the rest of the week. I’m a control freak I guess so this really irritated me. I want to be able to project a water use estimate to the customer. This is very difficult with a controller that changes a little everyday.

Like you mentioned I have had very little success selling the controllers by themselves. However if I package the controller into a “Water Smart” or Water Conservation” upgrade, I have had much better results. Personally I think that while the controller by itself is a big improvement, most systems are so inefficient they really should be reworked or replaced altogether. This controller will expose almost every weakness in an irrigation system. So be ready. The customer will be calling and asking, “Why do I have these brown spots in my lawn where it was green before?” So a system upgrade works really well.

I decided to offer a more complete package with plants added. Plant selection and grouping is another key element. Since you will always water to accommodate the most inefficient part of your irrigation system or landscape, we try to improve the system and landscape uniformity. As I stated above in the package are a number of service visits to check the system and watering results. The service package can be just the standard three month set up package or an annual water conservation system service agreement. With the annual agreement, we go as far as monitoring the water meter for usage. We guarantee a reduction in water use and that is one way we prove it. I am hopeful that soon I will be able to guarantee a savings percentage or dollar figure.

So of course I'm interested in new ideas. Pm me if you like.

Bill

[h20saver]

Thanks for your update on the experience with the ET controllers. I think that mirrors what many others think, and it's a reason why I believe the ET controllers are going to have a hard time being used in the mass market. (that is unless california mandates their use )

I think for some people the cost of controller and services calls isn't going to matter. Here's a link to an article that I thought was both amusing and disturbing at the same time:

Armstrong tops list of city's largest water users

For some people water isn't expensive enough, and for others it is a noticable part of their budget.

For large water users the ET controller plus some service calls will save people money, if they care about it at all. Most likely the larger users will be more concerned more about being green and not having a reputation as a "waster of resources." And this goes along with your marketing effort to package an upgrade as a "Water Conservation" or Green service. How embarassed must Lance Armstrong be to have an article like that published? He will need to fix his water use issue mainly because he needs to be seen as someone who cares about conservation. For people like this the ET controller and the service calls, along with some irrigation system re-routing will save them a lot of money, but you have to get their attention first. Maybe making a copy of the linked article and including it in a marketing package to your customers would help?

I'm looking at providing smart irrigation control for the mid-tier market, those that have enough of a water bill where a smarter controller would save them money, without the cost of the controller or the operating hassle of the controller being a barrier to installation. The system would also allow either the property owner or the landscaper to make adjustements. While this is an operational system, it is early in it's development, but I'll send you a PM on the system, and I'd be interested in your thoughts.

h20,

[Daniel Hanson]

There will be a new ET based controller coming out soon from one of the irrigation equipment manufacturers. I can't say who but I can say that we're field testing some units for them. This thing blows everybody else out of the water by far. I have install plenty of WeatherTrak / Smart dials and this new product will have them beat hands down in terms of programming simplicity and performance. The WeatherTrak controllers work great but there is a lot of adjusting and like Bill said you do have to "trick" the controller sometimes to get it to do what you want. With this new unit there will be no annual subscription fees and the controller will be modular so you can configure it with as many stations as you want. From what I am told the pricing will be way better than any of the WeatherTrak based controllers. It should make a big impact on the industry when it is released next year.

[Inspired]

Thanks for your post Daniel. Very encouraging. I have had some conversations with Rain Bird and Toro/Irritrol on new things coming soon. Hunter has that residential weather station / ET station available now. I haven't had a chance to mess with it yet. Do you have any experience with it?

H20saver:
I have a customer here in Paradise Valley with a 1200.00+ water bill last July. They called me in to figure out where the leaks might be. Same situation, they are gone a lot during the summer and the water bill automatically debits. They came home to some huge bills. There were no significant leaks.

First off the water company raised the rates and added a tiered rate system. The more you use, the more you pay. That added the cost factor. The usage problem though was just the maintenance guy responding to the house keeper. She was worried that some plants were stressing and didn’t want to get in trouble if they died. So she kept telling the landscaper to add more water here, add more water there. By the time July rolled around he had every station watering an hour every day. There isn’t any lawn but, there are 13 drip stations on the property and many of them run between 9 to 14 gallons per minute. You can imagine how many plants there are. His usage was over 100,000 gallons a month. After 80,000 gallons there are some big service charges, so that was my first goal. You might think it was easy, but it wasn’t. Lots of plants, many of them tropical, sandy soils and 110+ temps during the day (and a hyper-active house keeper) make for a large watering need.

[h20saver]

Inspired:
It seems like that in the case of your customer with the $1200 + monthly bill that with the desert environment and the tropical plants that you might not be able to reduce their bills too much and have the plants survive. I wonder what their typical summer water bill is? Also, I wonder how much rates are going up in Phoenix and surrounding Areas?

I'm just learning about the different tiers of services offered in the grounds trades. It seems like the nursery men are experts in plants and how the plants need to be maintained. The irrigation people are experts in bringing water to the site and ensuring good application. The maintenance people generally then fiddle with the controller to make the owners/managers happy. That's what I see now, in the small business area (I think their are larger maintenance companies that will perform all of these jobs).

In the case of your $1200 water bill customer, it seems that the housekeeper and the maintenance person were making the watering decisions without any solid understanding of plant need, and this cost the customer. (And the ironic thing is, when I talk the my respected nursey contact, that most of the dead plants that he sees are caused by overwatering - they have people bring their dead plants in for a cause of death diagnosis). The nuserymen know how to keep the plants alive but they don't seem to offer ongoing plant maintenance services.

It would seem to me that a business owner could offer total service that covered irrigation, ie. the buildout and the control, and the green maintenance. This type of contractor would have the knowledge of the nurseryman and the irrigator. I haven't seen this service combination offered by a nursery, I guess it is either too complex, or not enough money in it. This type of business would most likely have to charge monthly maintenance fees with out per call type fees, might go against current practice.

Your thoughts?


.

[Inspired]

There are many contractors around the country that offer that type of complete service. Many post here. We are a design / build contractor, however we offer irrigation system maintenance and lighting maintenance because they are a specialty service where I have a lot of experience.

[Daniel Hanson]

I have seen the Hunter product and we will be installing one on an existing job here soon. I really don't have any expectations for it given my opinion of Hunter and their products. I steer clear of Hunter products all together since I find them to be inferior in quality and design to other products on the market. I especially don't like their controllers. They have always had a really cheap feel and quality to them.... mainly because I think that Hunter has them made in China by a third party.