[Stonehenge]

Now that I see we just got a great irrigation guy on board, I thought I'd ask an irrigation question....


When I moved from the Detroit area to Northeast Wisconsin, I moved from a place that had an appreciation for watering without hassles (and an appreciation for a green lawn ) to a place that didn't seem to understand the expense of an irrigation system when 'you've already got a hose and sprinkler - what do you need a whole underground system for?'

Just like paver styles in this area, the mindset of irrigation is slowly beginning to change. Where there was once only 2 or 3 irrigation companies in our market, there are now a half-dozen.

So it's a service that is becoming more popular here, and once it reaches a stage where my clients begin to ask for it, I'd like to be able to offer it.

So as a guy who does some water features and low coltage lighting, but does nothing in irrigation, what would I need to learn?

What would a basic compliment of tools be to do residential irrigation?

Which systems (Rainbird, etc) are the best?

Thanks in advance!!

Jeff

[SprinklerGuy]

I guess questions like this generally irk me a little...don't know if you are trying to or not but it does. Here is what I would suggest.

Don't do it. Do what you do best and do it well. We as an irrigation/softscape company don't even try to dabble in hardscape stuff because the learning curve is too large. We don't know anything about pavers etc. and our best bet for success is to continue doing what we do best.

However, if you insist:
Check with the local irrigation supply houses for training.
Check with the Irrigation Association for training.
Hire a subcontractor to do the first few jobs and work with him.
Hire an irrigation professional to head up the irrigation division.

There is no best system, we generally use the best from each company in its best application to come up with the best overall solution to different problems or situations.

As for tools, normal hand tools will work fine. There are specialized trenching shovels that work best. Trenchers and pipe pullers are not needed in my opinion. We sub out the large trenching jobs. We have a small trencher for "spur of the moment" trenching.

Any other questions that are less vague and general, fire away. It isn't like mowing yards, you can't just buy the tools and be in business. Sorry!

[Stonehenge]

Tony,

I realize that jumping into this is not as simple as writing a check and away you go, so irking you was definitely not my intent.

There's a good supplier in my area that I already rely on for other tools and materials, and I know they offer classes and seminars. I plan to utilize them when the timing is right.

That being said, I've seen a few of the irrigation contractors in my market - the one I've seen most often has a minivan with paint peeling, no signage. Other employees show up to the site in their own cars (which would be fine if they weren't junkers). So the level of professionalism isn't quite there yet around here.

I like the idea of filling an unmet need. So far the need isn't quite big enough around here to warrant sinking $50K into tools and eqpt to do irrigation, but that day is coming. When it does, I like to have a handle on how much I'd need to spend (on eqpt or personnel) to get going.

I can understand where you're coming from - I get frustrated when someone asks - "how do you price pavers" - I have a busy schedule, so sitting down to write the 10-15 pages I'd have to in order to fully explain paver pricing is much more than I'd like to do. You've been helpful already, and I'll just keep an eye on this forum to gather whatever info I can.

Thanks for your help,

Jeff

[Nebraska]

Without someone to "just mow the grass" that irrigation install, audit, turn-on, & winterize is worthless. It becomes a reflection of what is immediately perceived by customers and prospects.

Just as all the installers & service companies of sprinklers just work on the system and do a crappy job (as so many do) reflects on all parties especially lawn and landscape maintenance companies.

There's a larger picture that needs to be taken into consideration for everyone's success and that is how all this ties together.

I contend there is nothing more honorable with doing sprinkler systems over lawn and landscape maintenance. Both are just as easy to get into and just as hard to build a profitable business with. Those of us in the maintenance end have an additional factor that we can't control for the most part that affects how our work is perceived...Mother Nature and/or wading through all the unreliable sprinkler contractors to find that "one".

[Stonehenge]

I thought that might spark something....

If I understand your market and your marketing, Nebraska, it's not a 'mow and blow' outfit, as I hear them referred to. You're into turf and plant horticulture, and sell your company as a horticultural service.

And if I understand Tony, he was frustrated that through my question I was implying that it was extremely easy to get into what he does - just write a check and you're in. Which was not what I was trying to imply.

But the reality persists, that the barriers to entry for a 'mow and blow' operation are pretty small - a kid gets dad's mower and he's in business. Now he can't compete with the knowledge and experience of a company that takes a holistic approach to lawn and landscape maintenance, but he's a competitor nonetheless, and you have to spend time educating the customer about how your service is better than theirs, much like you're doing now in this thread. If a turf disease is present, not only will the kid not know what it is or how to treat it, he'll likely spread it to every other yard he tends to, carried on the blades of his mower.

So without putting words in Tony's mouth, I'm betting that that is who Tony was referring to, not someone who's gone through school and training to get where they are (just like he has).

[SprinklerGuy]

Nebraska

I meant nothing of the sort......meaning I didn't mean your business was less honorable than mine.

But now that you've brought it up:

Finding a good sprinkler contractor/repairman is hard, your right. Finding a good maint. guy is just as hard, maybe harder.

Now....the great thing.....finding a maint. guy who will keep his mitts off of the sprinkler system is even harder.

That being said, I'm not accusing you of being any of these things.

[Nebraska]

I too have my roots in the mow and blow industry Me and my Toyota, 21" lawnboy, Ryobi trimmer from Menards, and a broom! Nights and weekends. LOL! Breifly I must add. Some of them do evolve.

[Nebraska]

The only time we touch the thing is when we can't find that "sprinkler guy". We honestly have too much to do yet sometimes are forced to service a system before damage is done. As such have become self taught "sprinkler scrubs of necessity".

....everyone (many not all) seems to disappear around here when it get's above 90 degrees, maintenance and sprinkler co's alike.

[PSUscaper]

Hello,

Being I'm in my first couple years of business, I've had a few weeks where I've been 'slow', and have filled that time by working in the irrigation field. During my part time experiences, I have learned enough that I can confidently work on most of the sytems I have to rework for my landscape installs. I have a complete irrigation box in my trailer in fact, and am confident that my irrigation work is 100% up to par.......I know what I can and cannnot do on my own, and unless I have to do something major, like add another zone, revamp an entire system, etc,.....am confident I can work on the system and have it running just as good, if not better, than it was when a job is completed.

From my own experiences, I will say this:

I have no doubt, that you stonehenge, will have no problem with the technical issues. I've helped install some pretty large systems, and will say that, no matter how complicated these irrigation guys make it sound, it isn't necessarily true... Installing sprinklers is not more difficult than designing and installing landscaping, which many guys make it sound to be. But being consistant, and knowing the 'basics' is very important. Like everything else, it takes time, but can be achieved, and for someone like yourself, I feel the learning curve would be short.

However, as others have touched on, the problem is with the consequences of insalling a system.

Once you instal one, you then almost become obligated to maintain it. And its not just maintenance, but spring turn on and fall blow out...

By going into sprinklers, you now have to go into sprinkler maintenance. That can be a problem whe you are trying to focus on landscaping.

Plus, the start up costs (a trencher/vibratory plow) are quite high for a 'few' jobs a year.

In NJ, because of the licensing issues, it really is not a option for us landscapers to do irrigation. But if it were a 'unlicensed' market, it would become interesting as everyone would be able to offer it, and people with the finacial backing to support a 'part time' irrigation company would steal many jobs away for the sole reason they could offer a complete package.

Bottom line is, you will be starting a entirely new company by moving into irrigation. And the question is whether or not you want to run a irrigation company along with a landscape installation company. I think your pretty darn good at what you do already, so why mess around with moving into something else. With the way things are going for you, I can't see messing around with it...........unless you get to the point that you are competing with others offering complete packages, or unless you feel you want to run another sub division.



steve

[Bexter]

This too is something we have thought about. As it stands now we get 15-25% on all jobs that we sub out. As long as we are getting that I don't think we will get into it. But ... I would also have to say that if the right guy came along with lots of experience we might go for it. We have 15 jobs booked so far this season that have irrigation. It's getting bigger and bigger here.
Do you sub it out now Jeff? If not I would try and find a really good company and start.

[Stonehenge]

Steve, thanks for the kind words. You do hit on one of the obstacles to the field, doing maintenance, which in general I'm not fond of. Not that I don't stand behind my work...just that our setup is not geared to handle $50-250 service visits (I'm guessing at that number).

There are no licensing requirements for irrigation here, other than needing a licensed plumber to connect the system to the household water supply.

And I think it's something we could handle, technically - like you said, it isn't brain surgery (and to make sure I clarify this - neither is what we do right now). Given enough time and instruction I'm sure we could handle this.

And I agree, it is a lot like starting another business. Truthfully we've only lost a few contracts over the life of the business because we didn't do irrigation (probably lost a total of $50K in work - nothing to spit at, but not a fortune).

Bexter - That's not a bad idea. Though the market here is small, at least for residentials. It's growing little by little, but to give some perspective, tumbled pavers just started becoming popular here last year.

Many homeowners here have a hose and wonder why you'd need to have an irrigation system, too. But little by little, as people from other areas move here (which continues to happen ), the market as a whole begins to value those things that other metro areas have valued for a long time, like having a green lawn in the summer.

15-25% is pretty darn good. I may try your method to get things going in that regard - we don't have a sub we use for irrigation.

On a side note - if you sub out, at what point in a project do you have the irrigation people come in, in order to minimize re-work and delays with the grading and landscaping of the yard?

[Bexter]

This is how we work it most times:
 Jim comes to the office and picks up a copy of the plan to give us an estimate.
 Once the go ahead is given we will contact him when we are starting the job and find out if he has any needs from us. We may need to put access pipes under hardscapes for him.
 We keep in touch with him and let him know when we will be ready for him to start.
 Normally we are almost completely finished except for a final rake of turf areas and mulch in the shrub beds.

We may have to pull off site for a day or two until he is finished. Jim is excellent on cleaning up and sometimes rakes it out better than we left it for him. We collect all monies and pay him.

[Slimber]

To be honest, it's really not all that complicated to do irrigation installation on a small level, heck! ...You can even go to Homedepot and pick up a guideline and learn from that. My Bro-in-law had some time ago bought a new home in a sub division where all the homes comes with already installed irrigation systems in the front yards but the backyards were left bare for the new homeowners. I showed and helped him trench and run a main PVC line from the group of manifolds in the front to the back and hooked his sprinkler layout for his 2000 sq. ft yard. The primary issue to pay attention to is the psi rating from the valves to support the spray radius from the sprinkler heads and to make sure the spray patterns all overlapped one another. You can buy a faucect/hose pressure gauge to test the psi and then test each valve to determine how many sprinklers you can run off of each one, just be sure to check with the city your area first for codes before tapping in the domestic line. My point is, you can do it. As my Bro-in-law new neighbors heard of his new installed yard, I have never had so many installation jobs in such a very short time. .......laugh!

[Stonehenge]

As luck would have it I'll be moving into a new house very soon, and will do a little studying this winter and take a crack at setting up an irrigation system for it. Thanks for the tips!

[SprinklerGuy]

HEY SLIMBER!

You do realize that in the State of Arizona one must be a licensed contractor to do that sort ofthing for money right? Do you realize what the punishment can be WHEN you get caught?

I'm not just assuming that you aren't a licensed contractor, I can tell that you aren't. Home Depot??