I had a 14x16 flagstone patio installed a month ago. After spending 20 hours cleaning each stone of the mortar left by the mason, followed by sealing, I've come to realize I've got a bigger problem. The patio does not drain. The rain water will stay for a week if I don't pushbroom it off.
Is there a solution to this problem other than jackhammering it out and redoing it? I have a drainage system under the patio that moves groundwater to lower part of property. But can this patio be saved? Your help would be greatly appreciated. This was supposed to be my dream patio, but it's so far just been my worst nightmare!
For one thing, the flagstone patio with mortar joints and sealing of the stone is not meant to be permeable and allow water to seep through it.
The mason should have pitched the patio to allow water to runoff at specific lower points or into a drainage system installed when the patio was being built. When you talk about drainage system, what exactly is it? Is there any channel drains or drainage grates installed into the patio that are level with the flagstone?
In addition, was this installed on a concrete pad ( which I assume it was ) and the flagstone mortared to the concrete?
I'd want to hear the answers to the questions Fine Edge asked before I suggested anything.
One thing to consider - many types of flagstone are naturally lumpy and bumpy, often leading to small, unavoidable pockets of water standing after a rain. But those pockets should be very small - you shouldn't need a week for evaporation to do the work.
Thank you for responding. To answer your question re the drainage, that was done prior to patio installation to divert groundwater from seeping into our basement, and was not part of this job. The neighbor's property behind us is higher, so we took care of that before laying the patio over it.
The problem with our patio is that the mason made it level. I realize it should have been pitched away from the house, and he said he was going to do it, but apparently didn't want to spend the time.
The patio is wavy, with depressions from the natural flagstone, so I understand it will hold some water. But no water leaves the patio, unless I sweep it off manually. The mason laid 4" of concrete down, followed by a wire mesh, and installed the flagstone into patio mud mortar mix, cement, sand. (those are his words).
After my boyfriend and I scrubbed it with phosporic acid and sealed it, it looks 100% better, but it's unusable with all of the water. (It rained 7 inches this month)
Looks like your stuck with the patio you have unless you tear some of it if not all of the stone out and re-do it. You say the patio is unusable. And its a nightmare. That sounds like quite an exaggeration.
Standing water on a patio sounds like a minor nuisance. However, shame on the mason for not pitching the patio. Perhaps it is possible re-set some of the stones slightly higher to accomplish some drainage. would have to see photos.
He might do it if you ask.
What has the contractors response been to all of this?
Does he have any guarantees expressed or implied in his contract?
If he used a preprinted form (ie NEB'S) they usually have some boilerplate stuff about work to be performed in a workmanlike matter (whatever that ultimately means, who knows) but still any workmanlike contractor would have pitched the patio away from the house.
I'm assuming no permits were taken out which could hurt or help you depending on the mason and the town.
If you did get a permit, then go to the town and start asking for help.
On the solution side of things - is there any step down out of the house to the patio? Or is the patio at the same height as the room it butts up to? The reason I ask is that as appalling as it may sound, you could potentially lay a patio over this patio if you do have at least 5" (2" for pitch and 3" for stone and setting bed) from the sill to the new patio.
Quick thought- is the grade (soil) higher than the patio on any of the remaining 3 sides (assuming it is a rectangle)? Could the grade around the patio be too high so the water is actually being dammed up on the patio. In reality water seeks its level, so if the other sides are pitched away the patio, water should start to drain after a minimal accumulation of water even if it is truly level.
Water sitting on a patio is more than just a nuisance, especially at a home that has prior drainage issues and a cold winter climate. In the winter, the patio will ice up and become a health, safety and welfare issue. Pushing water with a broom will seem like fun compared to chopping 3" of ice.
You should pursue things first with your contractor, via certified mail, if he is non responsive by phone. You need documentation if you are going to pursue things through the legal system.
Good luck with it and before you chalk it up to experience, try to get it resolved.
The mason should have known better. Talk with him first and explain your problem. It may be that he can actually remove some of the stones and reset them lower to get the water to drain properly.
If that fails, then I guess I'd take all the other legal advice offered here. There seems to be many on this site that are versed in the proper steps to take.
I just don't have that much knowledge on what the best way is to legally get someone to fix their problem. I don't use subs that won't warranty their work and I've never had a client threaten to sue me because of shoddy workmanship. If something is wrong, I'll fix it.
Let us know how your situation turns out.
I posted a reply yesterday, but it somehow got lost. I've been having some large companies look at my situation to offer a solution.
First, thank you all who have taken the time to respond. You've restored my faith in people.
To answer your very thoughtful questions, the contractor is unwilling to do anything more for me and feels it's the fault of the stones being different thicknesses.
As far as a dropoff from the house to the patio, it's 12 3/8 inches. And from the patio to the grade is an inch. I loved the idea of a patio on top of a patio and talked to some folks who said it would crack underneath and cause problems. I don't understand why.
Right now we're looking at spending $11,800 to put a roof over the whole thing, to keep the rain water and snow off. It would also be possible to enclose the patio and create a room in the future.
It's more than I wanted to spend, but it's a viable option. Your comments are appreciated.
Glad to try to help. No one likes to see a homeowner have these kinds of problems.
Just make sure that you don't throw good money after bad money. If you are putting a roof over the patio just to solve the problem you are currently having then I would think twice.
If you do go ahead with the roof then make sure that it can be easily converted into a 3 or 4 season room. You usually need to build a footing and foundation for these types of structures.
BTW - There is no reason why a patio would crack with another patio on top of it. Who is working up there in Schenectady? Mo, Larry and Curly Contracting?
the contractor feels it's the fault of the stones being different thicknesses.
I am rescinding my 1st post.
How can we be blaming this poor, innocent contractor, it's obviously the stones fault. Susan, you should go outside and yell at the stones. They should have organized themselves into even thicknesses before he started. This guy never had a chance.
Come to think of it, I would really put the responsibility on the rain and not the stone. The stone patio is fine until there is precipitation. Or what about gravity, it has a hand in this too. And if that darn sun would work better, the rain would dry up faster. Don't get me started on the wind.
Almost all of the stones I've worked with have a different thicknesses and that's why it takes a good mason to take proper grade shots and know how to pitch the patio.
It seems to me that you hired a mason that mostly did walls, columns and not too much flatwork.
Before you spend double the money to go over top with another patio or put a roof over it, why not take the time to interview another mason or 2, explain the issue, hose down the patio so they can actually see the problem and ask them point blank if they can fix it. Then tell them that you can't afford to pay the balance of their work if it doesn't drain. I know several masons that we work with that would have that fixed with no problems. It's just that it's gonna cost you a bit more money.
Hopefully the problem area is only confined to a small area.
I haven't smiled much lately, but I had to laugh when I read your msg, Jody!
The guy who did my work is very good at installing sidewalks, and obviously lied when he told us flagstone was his specialty. He just wanted to sell the job and make a buck.
I appreciate all of the input I've received about the possibility of having it repaired. I contacted someone two hours away who does mudjacking. It involves drilling holes in the patio and pumping concrete under the patio to lift it up. The estimate I received was $1600. Has anyone heard of this procedure, and if so, is it a good solution?
I'm going to make some more phone calls today to see what's possible. My contractor is taking me to court for his final payment. Maybe the judge will make him fix it, but now I have lost confidence in him.
I just went out today and took some pictures with a level set by my front door, which demonstrates a low point of the patio where the water pools right by my door.
Ug. Wow, I'm not usually one to be too critical of other's work, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but that's really a sub-par job. There's more square footage of mortar joints in that patio than there is stone. And the dips in the pavement seem pretty pronounced.
I'm uncomfortable just looking at that thing. Can it be saved? Maybe, if you remove all the stone and have it re-set by someone else. But then you'll need to bring in a lot more stone, because if someone does that job right with tighter joints, you'll only get about half the patio done before you run out of stone.
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