[tatz4ever]

I have some questions for all of you landscapers.

I had a paver patio installed last year. I was given a 1 year guarantee against installation defects. Many areas of the patio have sunk below the cap on my retaining wall (the border of the patio), some areas up to 2 inches. There are also dips throughout the field of the work. My patio is 40 X 20 and these areas are very noticeable.

Questions:
1. I signed my contract with the landscaper on 4/24/07, but the work was not completed until 6/13/07. Which date do I need to be concerned in regard to my guarantee?

2. I want to send a certified letter to the landscaper regarding my concerns and guarantee to prove I made contact prior to my guarantee expiring. I am not sure of the proper wording I should use. Can you help with that?

3. My landscaper did not use a plate compactor to set the pavers. I questioned him a couple of times on this and he said he NEVER does this regardless of what the manufacturer recommends and NEVER had any problems doing it this way. This to me indicates a "Installation defect". Am I correct?

4. The only way I can see this problem being corrected is to remove all the pavers and to correctly prepare the entire area again. The pavers must then be put in again and plate compacted. Am I correct in assuming this?

5. Should I solicit estimates for this scope of work from other landscapers now so I have a dollar figure in case I need to go to court over this? I could also potentially be interviewing a new landscaper just in case I need to hire one IF my landscaper won't correct his mistakes.

6. Is it possible for the patio to become worse over time or is the majority of settling done in the first full year?

Thanks for any and help regarding this matter!
James

[chesie]

Why not call him and ask him to take a look and see what his take is. Rather than go through all this trouble a simple phone call may just get your patio fixed.

We guarantee all of work and I would much rather have a customer call and let me fix the patio than feel like I have a court case built against me before ever getting a chance to rectify the situation.

[Stonehenge]

Hi James,

I could be wrong, but I think you'll find other hardscapers reticent to weigh in on "should haves," without being able to see and touch the work.

Much of the advice I'll offer is similar to the advice I offer landscapers on the other side of this equation - what you have as a written agreement should be the guide as to what should be done.

In this case, some questions would be:

Regarding the 1 year guarantee begin date - when does the contract say the guarantee begins?

If you want to prove you made contact with your landscaper, sending mail with a return receipt is going to be best.

How to word it - that's up to you. Spell out your issues and what you expect as a resolution.

As for if the work was done poorly enough to warrant repair work - what does your contract say? Does it define parameters outside of which it's expected that repairs will be completed?

Have you contacted your landscaper by phone to voice your concerns? If not, then start there.

Regarding using a compactor to set pavers - we almost always do, but there are some newer paver products out there that the mfg specifies to not compact them after installation. So it wouldn't be possible to say what should or shouldn't happen based on the information provided.

Whatever the condition of the patio today, I know of no type of pavement, be it asphalt, concrete, clay, stone or any material that does not degrade in time. Your patio will also degrade in time. Whether the bulk of the settling is done for your patio would be impossible to say, because there are too many possible variables at play, and I can't see behind your retaining walls and under your pavers.

If you're interested in going to court, then you should arm yourself with as much information as you can, be that other estimates, paying for expert witnesses, etc.

Consider contacting the supplier of the pavers and having them come out for a look at the project. They will also likely be reticent to provide any legal advice, but they may be able to put some pressure on the contractor if the work really is substandard.

[agla]

You should write a letter expressing your concerns to document that you have done so as soon as possible.

I'm not going to judge what he should have or should not have done. It is up to his (and your) contract as to who is responsible for what. But, no matter who is right or wrong, everyone should document time sensitive communication in writing should it be necessary to show that it was done.

I would hope that your contractor would take care of you because he wants to do good work and keep his customers happy. It is unwise for any of us to comment on this too much as there are sometimes more to a story than what is being told. I'm not suggesting that this is the case here, but this could be an attempt to show documentation by "experts" on what the contractor's responsibility is.

PS. I almost did not post because of your opening line "you landscapers" sounds like a 'tude. I decided it may be your lack of writing skills rather than a 'tude, so I dismissed it.

[tatz4ever]

Originally Posted by Stonehenge

Hi James,


Regarding the 1 year guarantee begin date - when does the contract say the guarantee begins? Amazing what reading comprehension can do for you: It states" All work guaranteed for one year AFTER installation due to installation defects. I guess I never saw that until you made me look for it.



Have you contacted your landscaper by phone to voice your concerns? If not, then start there. I have left 2 voicemails and a message with his secretary. I have seen his trucks out with his employees in them. I feel he is avoiding me.

Regarding using a compactor to set pavers - we almost always do, but there are some newer paver products out there that the mfg specifies to not compact them after installation. So it wouldn't be possible to say what should or shouldn't happen based on the information provided.The pamphlet for the pavers he used specifically stated to use a plate compactor( http://www.cstpavers.com/pdf/installation.pdf ). That is why I questioned him on it several times.


If you're interested in going to court, then you should arm yourself with as much information as you can, be that other estimates, paying for expert witnesses, etc. Not really "interested", but I don't want to see my investment go up in smoke. The fact that he is not returning phone calls worries me though.


Thanks for helping me out!

[tatz4ever]

Originally Posted by agla

PS. I almost did not post because of your opening line "you landscapers" sounds like a 'tude. I decided it may be your lack of writing skills rather than a 'tude, so I dismissed it.

I am sorry if it came aross as an attitude. I was trying to imply that as professionals you may be able to assist me in what I need to do. I meant nothing disparaging by that remark. Sorry!

[Fine Edge]

It almost sounds like he didn't use a compactor before he set the pavers either.

[jshilan]

I think all of us should be very careful with this one. This is the second time he is writing in to complain about work that he has had done by a landscape contractor which to me sends up a red flag. The first one was about all of his plants being eaten by deer (see earlier posts). I've been around for a while so before we give tatz too much ammo I think that we should look at his argument and start with that. The reason I am bringing this up is because we have all heard complaints like this before. When you talk to the contractor, however, there is a completely different story and usually one that is much more plausible.

Like AGLA I get the feeling that things are not what they appear to be. It seems like there were things well beyond the contractors control which has created this situation and there are definately issues.

Who built the wall to support the patio?
Who prepped everything?
What promises or agreements were made to the contractor that may not have been fulfilled?
Why wouldn't you, as others have suggested, try to work it out with the original contractor before taking these measures?

I gotta go with "This Guy's an Attorney" for 1000 Alex.

It appears he knows exactly what he needs to do (certified letter, Installation Defect", blah, blah, blah) and is just looking for us to provide him with "Exhibits A through Z". Look at how the questions are worded. The beauty of this is that he is trying to get expert testimony without paying for it. Kudos!

My recommendation is don't take the bait and consider what you would want done if you were "the contractor" in this story.

Fess up tatz and try to work it out with your contractor, you might want to pay him the money you owe him too.

Case closed !

[dan deutekom]

Good Call Jody

[tatz4ever]

Originally Posted by jshilan

I think all of us should be very careful with this one. This is the second time he is writing in to complain about work that he has had done by a landscape contractor which to me sends up a red flag. I was not complaining about my plants, I was inquiring if they would still live or if I should pull them out and start again. I am a new homeowner trying to improve the look of my home, and don't know enough to do this type of work myself. The first one was about all of his plants being eaten by deer (see earlier posts). I've been around for a while so before we give tatz too much ammo I think that we should look at his argument and start with that. The reason I am bringing this up is because we have all heard complaints like this before. When you talk to the contractor, however, there is a completely different story and usually one that is much more plausible.

Like AGLA I get the feeling that things are not what they appear to be. It seems like there were things well beyond the contractors control which has created this situation and there are definately issues.

Who built the wall to support the patio?
Who prepped everything?Both the prep and the retaining wall were all done by my landscaper. Only thing I prepped for them was lunch EVERY day!
What promises or agreements were made to the contractor that may not have been fulfilled?I made NO promises, I am the customer, I recieved 4 estimates on this job ranging from $9,000.00 to $24,000.00. I went with the guys I was most comfortable with and paid $14,310.56.
Why wouldn't you, as others have suggested, try to work it out with the original contractor before taking these measures? I have now left 3 voicemails (2cell phone and 1 office) and have now left 2 messages with his secretary. I AM trying to work with him, but can not help to think he is avoiding me. Maybe he has no intention of getting in touch with me until my guarantee has run out? I don't know? A friend of mine also called yesterday and left a message with his secretary for an "estimate" and got a call from him within 20 minutes. So I know he is getting his messages and looking for new business.

I gotta go with "This Guy's an Attorney" for 1000 Alex. I wish I were, believe me!

It appears he knows exactly what he needs to do (certified letter, Installation Defect", blah, blah, blah) and is just looking for us to provide him with "Exhibits A through Z". Look at how the questions are worded. AGLA thought I lacked writing skills and you think I word my questions like a lawyer, wierd.The beauty of this is that he is trying to get expert testimony without paying for it. Kudos!I am looking for advice, not expert testimony. I found this site through a search on google. Maybe I should look for the "shady landscaper forum" and ask for answers there. Everyone on here seems to run a fantastic business and would not know about these types of problems?

My recommendation is don't take the bait and consider what you would want done if you were "the contractor" in this story. You all would do the right thing and honor your guarantees. I believe my landscaper is trying to do just the opposite.

Fess up tatz and try to work it out with your contractor, you might want to pay him the money you owe him too.I am trying to work with my contractor, but he is avoiding me. I made my deposit of $8,800.00 on 04/24/07 and my final payment of $5510.56 on 06/13/07 the day he completed the work. I can forward you my contract and copies of the checks if you wish.

Case closed !Thank you your honor, but I'd like to file an appeal just in case anyone else can actually help me.

[scl]

Okay, everyone take a deep cleansing breath >>>>>>>>>>>>! Now, tatz, don't worry about the guys on here, we're all on the up and up, just that we get a little hackled at the thought of "that kind of customer" because they do happen. As for you, I think Stonehenge gave some pretty good advice. Document everything as you go, call this guy twice a day until he puts a restraining order on you, and proceed to the next level after that. Granted most on here would or may do things different than your guy, but I do things different than Jeff who does them different from AGLA who does them, well you get the point. I've had to clean up others messes before, and they believed what they did was right. SO, your avenues are open, if you want the peace of mind of another experts opinion, have one come out and expect to pay a small fee. I would NEVER pass judgement on a project that I hadn't seen or touched. Good Luck Buddy!

Scott

[Stonehenge]

I'm not convinced you're looking for expert testimony here, but also know that the best I can offer to anyone in this situation is pretty limited. There are contractors on this forum who install work differently than I would, but that doesn't mean my way or their way is wrong. The proof is in the pudding.

I think you probably already know the answers to many of the questions you're asking, it's just that it might be hard to accept that after putting down $14K of your hard-earned money you're now faced with potentially having to spend more, either to hire another contractor or take the current one to court, and the headaches involved with either option.

I know the phonecall avoidance issue can be extremely frustrating - I've had to play it with delinquent clients, and it's no fun. Especially when you know they're returning other calls. If that's the case, then I think you aren't misreading the signs, and you need to begin the process of building a paper trail. Photograph the work. Call the material supplier as I had suggested and ask them to come out and look at the work (this may seem odd, but material suppliers get asked to do this pretty often (but never for our work!)). If that doesn't work, you know what your next step is - contact an attorney and have them send a letter to the contractor - might only cost you $150, but might be all you need to get the repairs done. If that doesn't work, then you'll have more of a battle on your hands.

For my own reference and maybe that of others, I'd love to be able to turn this into a learning experience both for prospective clients out there as well as landscape contractors. Can you answer a few questions for me?

What specific things about this contractor swayed you to choose him? Did price play a big part? (Be honest - I have people tell me it wasn't about the price, then I later find out they picked the absolute lowest bidder. I know you didn't, but I'm still curious.)

How did you find each of the contractors you called? Yellow pages? Online?

Did this contractor supply references? If so, did you check them? If not, did you ask for them?

How well versed were you in pavers before contacting these companies? Did you perform research online of methodologies to cross-check with your prospective contractors? (A lot of work I know, but I've had a few that did it.)

Were there any "red flags" that cropped up during or after you contracted the work? Did the trucks look like they were held together with duct tape, or did the staff look like they were on work release programs from the local prison?

Did you receive a design of the work to be installed?

Thanks for indulging my questions.

SCL - you got in before I posted - so there may be some duplication in our posts.

[F.E.2]

If I had a contractor that was avoiding me or not returning my calls I would be worried myself. A certified letter might be just the thing to get his attention. That being said, I have no idea if his installation was correctly done or not. Go with your gut and cover yourself and your investment. Unfortunately there are very few quallity products and services out there today (In all industries). As a consumer I am very aggresive in getting what I pay for. I would give the original contractor every chance to make good on his word. I would not waste anymore time with phone calls if everything you have said is true. Good luck.

[tatz4ever]

Originally Posted by Stonehenge

Call the material supplier as I had suggested and ask them to come out and look at the work (this may seem odd, but material suppliers get asked to do this pretty often (but never for our work!)). I read this in your first post and thought "What good will this do?" If this is done often in your industry I will call them tomorrow and see where that leads me.

For my own reference and maybe that of others, I'd love to be able to turn this into a learning experience both for prospective clients out there as well as landscape contractors. Can you answer a few questions for me?

What specific things about this contractor swayed you to choose him? Did price play a big part? (Be honest - I have people tell me it wasn't about the price, then I later find out they picked the absolute lowest bidder. I know you didn't, but I'm still curious.) Price did not play as large a role as I thought it would. My wife and I had a $20,000.00 budget that I did not want to go one penny over. I recieved estimates of $9k, 13k, 14+K (the one I chose) and 24+k. I chose this guy because of his appearance, attitude, presentation and seemingly professionalism. I can say that I did like the 24K guy better, but after trying to work within my budget and getting to 24K, I knew I did not want to lay out the extra 4K. The other guys were comical. One pulled up and looked, took no measurements and wrote 13K on his card and said let me know now, because I get really busy. The 9K guy seemed shady right off the bat, and I pretty much knew within 2 minutes of meeting him that he would not get the job. The order of my estimates were 14+K (my guy), 13K, 9K, and 24+K.
How did you find each of the contractors you called? Yellow pages? Online?All of them were found using the yellow pages. It is amazing how few estimates I was able to recieve due to my location. The yellow pages ads that say "Serving all of XXX County" are full of it. Out of about 20 calls, I set up 5 estimates, one did not show at all.

Did this contractor supply references? If so, did you check them? If not, did you ask for them?I spoke to 2 prior customers who were thrilled with the work, could not recommend this guy enough. I also drove to 3 other completed jobs with the guy.

How well versed were you in pavers before contacting these companies? Did you perform research online of methodologies to cross-check with your prospective contractors? (A lot of work I know, but I've had a few that did it.)Not well versed at all. I did ask each one to bring a paver and retaining block that they would use on the job. Only my guy and 24+k guy did this.

Were there any "red flags" that cropped up during or after you contracted the work? Did the trucks look like they were held together with duct tape, or did the staff look like they were on work release programs from the local prison?Some, after I contracted him.
1. At the same time I was having the yard done I was looking for someone to put a set of stair off my back deck. My guy highly recommended a friend of his. After planning the steps with this guy and working up a price I signed a contract with him. He took a $1000.00 deposit and never came back. I won a judgement in Oct 2007 of $1300.00 9$1000.00 plus court costs and have not seen a penny from this guy. When I found out that the stair guy gave me a ficticious address on my contract I contacted my landscaper (after my yard was done). He would not give me the guys address at all. Not that he didn't have it, he did not want to get involved. I had to find him through other means.
2. The lack of using a plate compactor when I pointed out that the installation instructions said you must use one.
3. He also told me that he is always on the job site. This was a HUGE factor in me choosing him. After about one week I was told that he lost the top of his finger (from knuckle to end) getting block for me and would not be around. He was not actively on site the rest of the job. He showed up on the last day (to get paid) with a small band aid on one finger. I later learned he was working another job during that time.

Did you receive a design of the work to be installed?I recieved a design done on graph paper. I am no expert, but his did not look any better than the one I made to show my potential landscapers what I was looking for.

Thanks for indulging my questions. You are welcome, I hope it helped

[Stonehenge]

Tatz - Here's the biggest thing calling the supplier will do - suppliers often decide which installers get leads when prospective clients walk in their doors. If the supplier thinks the work is substandard, the supplier may either apply pressure to the contractor to fix the issue related to their product, or stop providing leads to that installer. No supplier wants their products associated with poor work. Your contractor almost certainly knows this. There are few bigger sticks out there than the potential for lost future business.

That the installer highly recommended someone who received money and never performed work, and didn't provide an accurate address is troubling. Maybe he didn't realize that referral also affects his own reputation.

Good luck. And thanks for the answers to the questions.