[Sodzilla]

Hello to the Forum. What a great resource for homeowners like me getting started with a patio project.

This is the first of many questions I'm sure. I've read some great stuff already including the paver tutorial.

I'm planning a paver job around 750 sq.ft. on a slightly crowned piece of land. The grade goes away from the house to the south and pitches to the east and west also.

My question is should I try to multi-pitch the main area or use single pitch with steps (ledges)?

Also, I've seen 1/8 per ft. as a guide for pitch - how much pitch can you use without getting into issues?

Looking forward to participating in the discussions here!

[Stonehenge]

I'm not sure what you mean by ledges, but if this is going to be a single, uniform surface, and your first project, I'd try to stick to a single pitch. Or crown it if you have the guts. On set of screed rails down the center with parallel rows down the sides.

As for how much pitch and issues - the only issue with too much pitch is comfort. It feels weird trying to enjoy a beverage on a patio that's pitched 1/2" per foot. Doesn't sound like much, but it feels like a lot. 1/8" - 1/4" per foot is our range.

[Sodzilla]

The area will be basically a large kidney shape (15 X 24) with a path running off the end toward the fence gates. If I stay within 1/4 per ft. pitch I figure I'll have to build a step at the last 6-8 feet of one end.

Its my first project of this kind but I'm not afraid to attempt to crown the kidney portion of it.

[Lanelle]

Think about the spaces that you are creating. Will each space be large enough to accommodate the intended uses? Will the table and chairs fit comfortably with room to walk around them for serving guests? Will the smaller area be large enough to have a purpose?
It sounds like you are going to have to support some portion of the patio with a retaining wall/step. It might make sense to build it all on one level with a more significant wall around the lower perimeter. Having said that, a multi-level living space has more visual interest and possiblities for adding custom touches.

[agla]

Think about where the water is going to go whether you pitch it in a sheet wash or crown it. Also think about whether you are going to block any existing surface flow areas.

Another thing to consider about how to retain the patio is that you could cut the patio in deeper and add another step near the house and maybe you will be able to have a gentle graded slope on the high side of the patio and again off of the low side. Then there would be no need for a long section of retaining wall. Your options are limited by your specific set of circumstances, but those are a couple of things to think about.

[Sodzilla]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I realize the difficulty in discussing these things without visuals.

Would it be OK and be useful to post up photos and plans?

Oh ya, I pulled up some old patio stones yesterday to get started on the dig and... ANT COLONY!!! Literally 1000's of tunnels, huge nests of eggs and the very excited hordes of ants. While moving the stones I got some crawling around on my feet and hands and can those suckers bite!!

[Sodzilla]

Second lift tamped, 1-2 more to go

[Sodzilla]

Turning out well so far, just a couple of questions regarding the next part:

1. Is the pitch too steep under the fence gate? Its about 1/4 per foot at this area but matches the existing grade pretty well.

2. How would you start the sand layer? i.e. how many guides and where to start first? I don't want to have to pull the guides until its done-done but with such a large area i'd need a ton of pipe.

3. Any other tips for this type of screeding job would truly be appreciated.

[EpicInterlock]

Sodzilla,
I work out of your area, Durham Region. I'm actually based in Whitby, and I've done quite a few jobs in Brooklin as well.

As for your existing grade under your fence, next to the house, just worry about making your patio perfectly graded. If the sod around the perimeter of your patio is off (either by being too low or too high, in relation of the pavers), you can always adjust the height of the sod by adding or removing topsoil, then resodding.
In your subdivision, I've had many complaints from homeowners when working on jobs and quotes that the grade is ridiculous (it seems that the builder did it quickly and didn't care too much). I just recently finished a backyard patio job in Brooklin (NE corner of #7 and Thickson rd) that had at least the whole street sloped into the homeowner's backyard, causing flooding whenever it rained. I solved the problem by installing weeping tile, and slightly grading the patio to allow water to run off into the weeping tile.

Anyway, back to the topic. You also asked for help with screeding.

I consider this the most painstakingly time-consuming part of the job because if it isn't perfectly "flat", after laying the pavers, you will really see the imperfections (dips, humps, etc)
My suggestion would be to use a 3'-4' landscape rake as well as the screeding rails to help with the levelling, you can find it at any Home Depot, but the Home Hardware on Baldwin st (hwy #12), north of #7 should have it for about $50-$75 cdn.

If you need to, I would be more than happy to drop by and chat with you.....no charge.....I don't mind spending a few minutes to give you tips. Just pm me or send an email with your address to me and we can go from there.

Hope this helps.

matt@epicinterlock.com

[Sodzilla]

Thanks, for the advice and the generous offer. I'll be in touch.

[Sodzilla]

Thanks Matt for the excellent advice.

I just recently got the stone delivered and when ordering step materials the guy at the desk insisted that a double course is required for the riser blocks, even if I have to excavate a bit to lay them in. I going with Brussels dimensional for the riser and the XL paver for the caps.

I don't see why after two very well compacted lifts of stone (4-5") I would need two courses of riser block unless it provides some more stability once buried and glued.

What should I do?

[EpicInterlock]

Anytime. I didn't mind coming to your place, I just hope that my advice made sense.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a double course. Do you mean the steps would be built with two blocks of the brussels dimensional stone? If so, that's the correct way to build a step. I would advise against using the XL paver as a cap for the step. Theoretically, it would be ok, but it's not as thick or as heavy duty as the Brussels Dimensonal stone, so it might be prone to cracking due to the "retaining" effect of the step or by simply using it as a step as opposed to a paver.

If you use the Brussels Dimensonal stones for the steps, just make sure that the steps will equal 6"-7" AFTER you lay the pavers. In your case, you will have three total steps, but one will be the concrete step that's part of your sliding glass door, so from the top of that step, measure down 18" if you want 6" steps TO THE TOP OF THE FINAL HEIGHT OF THE PATIO (or to the top of the pavers), not to the limestone screenings.

Also make sure you glue the hell out of it!

Let me know if you need me to come by again.....I'll see if I will have time, I probably will.

Matt

[Sodzilla]

[i]

Let me know if you need me to come by again.....I'll see if I will have time, I probably will.

Matt [/b]

PM Sent

[Raj Venugopal]

Screeding isn't rocket science. Here's a cheap and effective way to do it.

1. Determine your final elevation, i.e. where the top of patio meets the driveway, existing walk, etc...
2. Subtract the thickness of paver plus 5/8". So, if your paver is 3 inches thick, your final sub base should be 3 and 5/8" below final grade.
3. Go to a building materials store and buy 6 or so 10 foot metal conduit pipes with exactly 1" outside diameter thickness. They may be $6 a piece, give or take.
4. Lay them down on the rough base which is 3 and 5/8" below grade, space poles 2-3 feet apart, totally parallel to each other.
5. Dump crusher dust/sand on top of the poles.
6. Use landscape rake/lumber board... to draw the crusher dust/sand across the screed poles. This will create a uniform 1" thick bedding for your pavers.
7. Lay pavers on top of soft screed bed. Some contractors swear by not stepping on the fresh screed bed, some pre-compact the screed bed, others pre-compact and thrown on additional loose screenings....your pref.
8. Compact. Normally that 1" of screed will compact down to 5/8", giving you the right elevation.

There are variations to this, but hopefully this gives you a rough indication on how to screed...post if this isn't clear, or you have questions.

Good luck.

[Sodzilla]

Well its been a long haul but finally finished. Definitely some lessons learned along the way. This forum and the members was such a help, I couldn't have done it (well) without both.

Thanks!