[mattattax]

hello to all,

I have just begun excavating for a 250 sq. ft. patio in my backyard (Houston, TX where it might freeze 1 day per year). A very crude drawing is attached. My plan is to use the Nature Walk stones from Lowes (link below):

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...033-299-183033

Creating patio via the following steps:

1. remove sod and excavate with a drainage slope away from the house, install two 4" diameter drainage tubes in sock underground just inside the perimeter of the sides of the patio (to assist with drainage away from the house)
2. spread 3/4" and smaller gravel about 4" thick for the base, then tamper
3. stake out composite edging around perimeter of patio
4. spread sand OR sand/cement mix and screed at 1" using 1" PVC as screed lines
5. place stones and cut them where neccessary, then tamper
6 pour Plumber's mix (sand/cement mix) and sweep with push broom into spaces between stones, tamper, pour and sweep again

Now the you know what I'm trying to do, I have a few questions:

1. Can someone provide me with a link to the appropriate gravel base to buy? I can't find it at Lowes or Home Depot.

2. Is composite edging okay--considering I already bought it--or should I return it and get something better?

3. Should I use 1" of sand OR a cement/sand mix to lay pavers on?

4. What kind of tamper do I need to use and when?

5. Is ther anything I should add or subtract from my 6 aformentioned steps?


Thank you for any and all replies/help. This site has been a tremendouos help already!

[LandArts]

Sounds like you are about to put a tremendous amount of effort and a good bit of cash into a project that will likely end up having a negative effect on your home value.

[mattattax]

Thank you for the warning but it would help a lot more if you were to explain why.

[LandArts]

If you can invest around 3k in the project I'd consider getting estimates and having it done professionally. It's just not that much fun w/o the right tools and experience.

If you're set on doing it yourself read a couple of books, consider PAYING a pro fro a consultation, and buy from a reputable supplier.

Good luck with your project!

[Dire Wolf]

1: Pick up a brochure for nicolck / Cambridge pavers etc. it explains the process in detail
2: At a local stone suppy yard you can purchase bulk material for your base ( crushed concrete ) and fine screened sand to lay under the pavers. 1 cubic yard covers 160 square feet 2 inches thick.
3: DO NOT use sand and cement to sweep in between the pavers the cement will discolor the pavers instead they have specific products to sweep in so weeds do not come through.

Good luck hope this helps

[AZTLANLC]

Base has to be compacted in 2" lifts with a good plate compactor, most rental places have them for about 70-100 a day.
The stone for the base has to be 3/4"minus some places they call them Item 4, bank run, QP, or something else.

I don't know the slope on your house or how is set up but we usually don't use drainage pipe unless there is need for it.
Composite edging? (sounds like trex to me) buy edging meant for pavers most pavers manufactures sell them.
1" concrete sand is recommend it.
Polymeric sand to sweep in the joints.
And please please don't buy those pavers they are way overpriced for the quality, if you are after that look check out belgard they have a similar stone but much ticker and less expensive, also with those lowes pavers you wouldn't be able to compact them leaving you with many uneven stones.

Everyone else is also correct many people think this is an easy task and can't justify paying for it, actually many contractor also think the same and do a lousy job.
The end result might be something appealing once is done but couple years down the road it might look so different.

The time and hard labor this will take you to do it right will be quite some a project this size done properly would take you about 40-50 hours, how much is your time and family worth?

[Stonehenge]

I know that in Texas there isn't nearly as much base prep as there is in more northern climates, so keep that in mind when you read this brick paver tutorial.

Just like if you'd been doing you job for 20 years and I took a crack at it once, it is unlikely you'd do anywhere near as good a job as some of the contractors here (like myself) with 20 years experience. I (and many others here) know things you just can't learn in a few discussions. That being said, you might be able to do a good enough job to satisfy yourself, and since you are the ultimate arbiter of the quality of the work, if you think you should go for it, go for it.

But start with that tutorial.

[RickG]

Matt,

Listen to these guys. As a homeowner and first time patio builder, everything they say is right. My project was twice the size of yours. I spent a year on it - about four months working through the design. Once i did, i excavated and found a whole host of new issues. After several months of working through those, I had a pro come in and laod and tamp and grade the stone. Found new issues. Then built it. Just now finishing up the last 50 sq feet or so. And all along bent the ears of all the pros i ran into.

Is it perfect? Nope, found a mistake or two already, nothing lethal, but something none of the responders to this posting would have made on their worst day (and that is based on lurking in this site for about a year and learning to respect their ability). But in the end, they are my mistakes and more than willing to live with it.

Just be sure to read as much as possible, and when you think you have it all figured out, get ready for a surprise. Go to as many paver company (Cambridge, unilock, belgard, Ep Henry)sites and read their install methods and recommended materials.

And as direct as the responses have been so far, I found everyone very tolerant on this board and willing to share and direct as they can. but never forget - its their livelihood.

[Sodzilla]

This my sound like a dumb question but when lying down the screeding sand using the 1" pipe as in the tutorial, why is a trench needed under the pipe? Is this to keep it in place during the screeding process?

And if so, what is the layer depth going to be 1/2" or 3/4"?

Also, its not obvious to me if the idea is to completely lay and screed the entire project first or do it in stages i.e. prep one area then lay brick then move onto the next area?

Last, once an area has been screeded and tamped, can it be walked on without causing too much damage? I can't see any other way to remove guides and fill and tamp without walking all over it,,,

[Stonehenge]

I'm not a fan of sand, so if you read the 5,000 word (or so) tutorial, that was from the perspective of screeding stone over a bed of stone. The trench is to sink the pipe just a bit, in case you added enough stone in lifts that you're very close to your final elevation (which is optimal).

If you're going to lay the entire project at one time (whether that be a single day or 2-3 consecutive days), then prep all at once. If it's going to rain overnight, leave the screed rails in, so you can fix any damage the rain might do.

And you should do all you can not to walk on the base prep. If you use sand, pull the pipe only when you reach them with your pavers, allowing you to kneel/stand on the pavers. If you use all stone, walk directly next to the pipe (or straddle the pipe with your feet). Once you fill the voids with stone, compact and smooth out the pipe lines, you'll also smooth over any foot tracks you make.

[Sodzilla]

Stonehenge, in the tutorial it shows the screeding stone on top of the bedding stone with no landscape fabric in between - is this standard?

Do you need the fabric for sand only?

Another question: any experience with High Performance Bedding? How do you apply the joint sand with this stuff - seems like it would just drain away.

[Stonehenge]

If we use fabric, it goes between the soil and first lift of crushed stone. We may use geogrid between lifts of stone, but that's usually for vehicular applications.

Re: high performance bedding - haven't heard of it.

[Paul]

There are lots of "high performance bedding" what kind are you talking about? From your post your looking at installing a low psi precast stone thats not rated for anything but walk ways and foot traffic. This product is not what we here at GTX install very much or at all. Hence most of us are unfamiliar with it and the installation methods used for it.

[EpicInterlock]

Mattattax,

You didn't specify how deep you were going to excavate, but if I read correctly, you're going to have a 4" thick base?
Make sure you excavate at least 6", plus the thickness of the pavers (if the pavers are 3" thick, then excavate 9"). When you lay the base, please, please be sure you compact in 2" lifts, just like AZTLANLC said. Don't be tempted to throw down the entire 6" base and "compact the crap out of it". It won't work. You will only compact the top 3-4" and the bottom 2" won't be perfectly compacted, which will result in shifting of the pavers over the years. This is the most common problem I see with DIYselfers.

Everything else everyone said is bang on. Good luck

[Sodzilla]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
If we use fabric, it goes between the soil and first lift of crushed stone. We may use geogrid between lifts of stone, but that's usually for vehicular applications.

Re: high performance bedding - haven't heard of it.

HP is a 3/8 granular stone that has 96% compaction after pouring (what I'm told) and supposedly replaces the 3/4 gravel and bedding method.