I am in the middle of a landscaping project that has involved removing approx. 34 cedar trees that were planted too close in the '70s. All of the limbs had grown out and had become entangled with the other trees. The front yard, which faces a dead-end street, is approx. 90 ft. long and the driveway is approx. 30 ft.
My landscaper has removed all of the trees and the stumps have been ground. He has laid approx. 65 cubic feet of topsoil in 3 berms, divided by a faux creek bed with stones in a "V" shape to separate the front 90 ft. section. The berms are about 12-16 inches high. The section that lines the driveway is one long berm. As I already had water (from a well) plumbed to the front row of trees I decided that now would be an excellent time to add a buried irrigation system for the new plants which will include, but are not limited to:
Blue atlas
Ceanothus
Cotoneaster
Lace maple
Escalonia "Pink Princess"
Dracaena
Euyonomus
Weeping cherry
Weigala variegata
There are a few other plants that I have not listed b/c I can't remember the names. The landscaper told me that it will cost about $2000 (parts + labor) for the entire irrigation system which will include PVC tubing, sprinkler heads (I think that no more than 12 will be req'd as the trees and plants are sited 2-3 ft. apart on average) and a battery timer/controller. I have told him that I would be happier if the price were closer to $1500 but the fact is that I just do not know if this is a reasonable estimate. His original estimate for the landscaping job, not including the irrigation system, was $11,500 but we agreed on $10,000 and I have since paid him $6000.
I live in Western Washington state, near Marysville (about 50 miles north of Seattle). Fall, winter & spring are typically fairly wet months but summer has been fairly dry for the past 2 years or so. Please tell me if $1500-2000 is a fair price for this irrigation system. Thank you.
That is a great example of why landscape contractors should never deduct money from the price of a job without deducting a part of the job.
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DeereCadet, your post raises an interesting question:
Would landscape contractors in other parts of the country and world gain something in crunching numbers for the client of another contractor, just to see if that contractor is charging what they should?
There are certainly lots of discussions on this site about pricing, giving landscape contractors the opportunity to compare notes to see where they may be making or losing money. It's an exercise that can sometimes shed light on estimating practices that are hurting a company's bottom line.
But in this twist on that scenario, there's less opportunity for learning. Since you don't know how or why the contractor came up with that price, little can be discerned from the price. For example, I'm not an irrigation guy, but I would think that brand and model of sprinkler heads and controllers would be something that would impact the price, but you list them without brand and model, thereby suggesting they are a commodity to you.
And we don't know about site access - it might be very easy or very difficult, in terms of the labor hours one would have to incur to install that job.
We don't know how easy you are to work with. You might be very easy, but you could be very difficult. When I meet clients that I suspect are going to be difficult to work with, I add a bit to the price of the project to compensate me for the added time and hassle I expect I'll have to face with that particular client. Or if they seem like they will be intolerable, I will either not bid on the work or give an astronomical bid, ensuring I don't get the work. Some people are just not worth working with, no matter what the price.
There are examples to the contrary in every industry, but in general I find the folks in our industry to be earnest, hard-working folks who do not live in luxurious homes or drive fancy cars (though I do know a few with fancy cars - but I'm not one of 'em). So when this thread was started with the implication that a contractor might be trying to get the better of you in their pricing, in general I think the reaction will not be to lend a sympathetic ear to the original poster, but rather to think of the fellow contractor in western Washington state whose client is haggling and surfing the web to try to knock a few hundred bucks off the price of a $2,000 job.
He's losing money at $ 2,000. We charge a mininmum of
$ 3500 for any sprinkler system.
To quote a job at $ 11,500, then contract it for $ 10,000 is insane. I quote a price, that's my price, this is not some kind of auction or negotiation session. If he gives up $ 1,500 on that job, he likely will not make any profit, or enough profit to keep his business sustainable.
I can already tell you that if you are UNHAPPY with paying more than $ 500 than you want to... then find another contractor..but likely won't find one any more willing to roll over for you than that one.
Most of my clients new and existing know my pricing is fair, and do not try to beat me up or work me down on price. That simply does not make for a good contractor / client dynamic or interaction. You have found a contractor who will lower his price when you complain. That's the guy for you, because he will meet your needs, and not his.
I would have sensed this out the first meeting with you, and likely not have invested the time and effort in preparing a quote for you.
Not an irrigation guy myself either but I have subcontracted quite a few and I think the lowest quote I've ever gotten was $2800.
I would suggest that if you think you're going to water trees and shrubs with sprinkler heads you are probably not in a position to judge what it takes to do the job. If you don't like the price then get some other quotes.
I wouldn't even touch a sprinkler job for 1500.00
If your not in the business then how is it that you think it should cost 1500.00? I hate when people tell me this is what I think a certain job is worth. If you don't know how to properly estimate the job then you have no business thinking how much it should cost. The only way I will lower an estimated price is to remove or change materials (size, quantity) to lower $ amount
Pay the estimated price so that you get the proper job. "cutting price only amounts to cutting corners........"
Last edited by davedogwood : 03-09-2007 at 07:08 PM.
Sounds way cheap to me. Like one of the previous posters stated, we don't have any way to assess the conditions of the job, so it's hard to tell for sure if this is an unreasonable price. But it seems way below the normal range. And while a well planned and installed irrigation system is well worth the money, a shottily installed system is nothing but a nightmare.
A top of the line Flexogen 100ft 8-Ply hose runs about $75. If you can't afford a quality irrigation system, buy a quality hose. Quality is a bargain every time.
First, thank you for your detailed reply. I will try and address some of the points that you have raised:
but I would think that brand and model of sprinkler heads and controllers would be something that would impact the price, but you list them without brand and model, thereby suggesting they are a commodity to you
I am very sure that brand/model/quality of sprinkler heads and controllers (I am getting a battery-operated controller) impacts the price and, no, I don't know the brand(s) & so they are somewhat of a "commodity" to me. Guilty as charged. I appreciate the fact that better quality often necessitates higher cost.
And we don't know about site access - it might be very easy or very difficult, in terms of the labor hours one would have to incur to install that job
The site access is very easy: about 10-16 inches of newly laid topsoil. Don't forget that I mentioned in my OP that plumbing has previously been run to the outer edges berm sections.
We don't know how easy you are to work with. You might be very easy, but you could be very difficult
IMHO, I am very easy to work with. I have developed a very nice rapport with the contractor and would not hesitate to call him a friend. I do not hover over him and "supervise" every aspect of the job but I do politely insist on a weekly update of the overall project (it should take about 30 days and we are about halfway there).
when this thread was started with the implication that a contractor might be trying to get the better of you in their pricing, in general I think the reaction will not be to lend a sympathetic ear to the original poster
As I stated in my OP, "I have told him that I would be happier if the price were closer to $1500 but the fact is that "I just do not know if this is a reasonable estimate". That is the truth. It seemed to me that the actual cost, including labor in easily accessible topsoil, should be closer to $1000 - 1300. I will admit to feeling that he was "self-compensating" for knocking the initial cost (without irrigation) down to $10K. One point that I have not mentioned is that the contractor is very happy to have this job. His is a 1-man business and the projects that he typically takes on seem to be smaller than mine. This will be a "showcase" project for him, both in size and design.
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your points. The reason that both the contractor and I agreed upon $10K vs. $11,500 (his original bid, without irrigation) is that I had a previous bid for $8K. Granted, the prior bid was for a simpler installation with either Cyprus or Thuja row of trees for a natural privacy screen and this contractor's ideas are more innovative and visually stimulating. To sum it up, I like this contractor.
Now for some facts: His is a 1-man business and Feb/March are his slow season. He is/was very eager to take my project on because it will be a very nice addition to his portfolio. His past projects seemed to mostly be about 1/4 scale & size of mine.
When he was looking at the project (before we agreed a deal), I was very pleased with his concept. Having said that, the only other offer I had received was for $8K and that job would have been much more "basic". When he finalised his plans and showed me the concept his bid was for $11,500, which would include all "incidentals" that could possibly occur. We walked and talked and finally agreed on $10K for the entire project (without irrigation, which was somewhat of an afterthought), any incidentals included. When the main project is finished I have asked him to do some smaller cleanup jobs around my property.
I'll be honest - I have yet to find a client who believes they are difficult to work with. Yet somehow, some of them are. You might be as easy to work with as you think. Relative to others, you might actually be very difficult. Without working with you, it would be impossible to know.
As for your belief that the project is overpriced - on what are you basing that determination? Sounds like you don't have any hard data to back that up, and are going more on a "gut feel". That intuition when it comes to pricing is usually wrong.
And if we're talking about gut feel, let me take a run at a gut feel about how I see this relationship. I'm thinking you hired this one man show because he was the least expensive. Larger companies often got that way because they have a better grasp on their costs and charge an amount that assures they'll be in business next season. "One man shows" all too often do not.
But even at being the least expensive, you still think the price should be lower. Not based on any hard data (like the costs of the brand/model of the hardware going in), but just a kind of feel. So you're hoping to negotiate a lower price. And truthfully, this poor sucker will probably give it to you.
You're asking for weekly updates. I'm not quite sure what a weekly update entails, but that to me sounds like a big red "problem client" flag. Step out into your yard - is that not enough of a progress report? If something is unclear, you would ask the contractor right then. If I were expected to provide weekly updates to a client, I would either:
1) Charge for those updates, as it is productive time I'm losing, or
2) Walk away from the project before any contract was ever signed.
The general tone of your post, again from gut feel, reads like you expect this contractor to grateful that he's lucky enough to have you as a client. And in many respects, a contractor should be grateful for all of their clients. I'm very thankful for all of the great clients we've had over the years. I'm even thankful for the small handful of difficult clients, because I learned a lot about how to avoid those kinds of clients altogether.
But I see our relationships with clients as less like a master and servant and more like a partnership of equals. You're providing the funding and I'm providing the manpower, equipment and expertise to build something wonderful. It doesn't sound like you see that relationship as a partnership. To me, all that means is that it sounds like you might be more difficult to work with than you think. But again, there is no way to know without actually working with you. You might be a peach.
"Feb/March are his slow season" .......that is a understatement!
Is 2k a lot for a sprinkler system? Well, if you want to use the same pricing plan the contractor gave you for the rest of the work, yes. Then again......10k for 65 cu feet of dirt sounds pretty steep!
Last edited by PSUscaper : 03-10-2007 at 01:54 PM.
You're right, you have not worked with me so I can only state again that I think that I am fairly easy to work with. I am probably somewhat more demanding than a typical client. The contractor has not voiced any complaints.
I do not feel that the removal and replanting project is overpriced. I think that $10K is fair. As for the irrigation/sprinkler system (1 zone, 7 heads), my initial "gut feeling" was that it should come in at around $1500.
You think that I hired this person because he was the least expensive. That is not the case. I had another bid for $8K but I preferred my contractor's design and chose to spend $2K more (after negotiation).
Yes, my gut is telling me that the irrigation/sprinkler install (parts + labor) should be lower than $2K. I may be wrong. That is actually why I started this thread. As we have not agreed on a final price for the system I am sure that we will come to a fair agreement and I would never consider him a "poor sucker."
As for weekly updates, if you were a homeowner spending $10K plus and having 90 x 30 feet worth of trees removed, branches chipped, stumps ground, 65 cubic feet of topsoil laid and numerous plants installed that were unfamiliar to you would you feel that it was excessive to ask that the contractor spend 20 minutes a week to explain how the project is commencing? That is a "big red 'problem client' flag"?? Remember that this is a 30-day project. As for the productive time that he is losing by providing me a service (updates), well, his schedule is very loose. Not that I really have a problem with that and I realise that he has a life and commitments other than my project but it is hard to know at what time he will show up.
Do I expect my contractor to be grateful that "he's lucky enough to have [me] as a client"? Yes. In the same way that I feel fortunate (not "lucky") to have him as a contractor. I really only started this thread to see what a fair price for a sprinkler system should be.
If it is necessary to qualify this relationship then "partnership of equals" probably comes closest to describing it. By your definition (funding provides manpower / equipment / expertise = a beautiful result) that is exactly how I see our relationship. I had not thought of it as a "partnership" but, OK, that works for me. I might be more difficult to work with than I think but I admit to being a demanding customer in all aspects of life. $10K (or $12K plus) is a big chunk of change for me - I see nothing wrong in getting the best value for my money.
One point that I did not raise is that I am allowing him to keep the trunks from the 34 30+ feet tall cedar trees for firewood. I am also photographing the entire start-to-finish process and have already provided him with some CDs of the first 2 weeks' work. I also have already paid him $8K.
Sounds cheap to me for that system.
Who's going to remember to replace the batteries when they suddenly stop working?
And what if they stop working the day you leave on vacation for 2 weeks and your plants die because you may be in the middle of a drought?
Who is responsible now for replacing those plants?
If you are spending that much $$ on your landscape, get a decent system that doesn't really solely on battery power but a battery BACK-UP to keep program times in the event of power failure.
Does he have any boring to do?
Does your county require a backflow preventer ( not cheap )?
Is he irrigating the lawn areas or just the berms? If it was just the berms, then a drip system might be more practical.
Plus, how much trenching does he have to do in the areas that don't have new topsoil? 65 yards won't cover your entire 90 x 30 area @ 16" thick. Even though the stumps have been ground, he is going to hit some major roots.
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- but I'm not one of 'em). So when this thread was started with the implication that a contractor might be trying to get the better of you in their pricing, in general I think the reaction will not be to lend a sympathetic ear to the original poster, but rather to think of the fellow contractor in western Washington state whose client is haggling and surfing the web to try to knock a few hundred bucks off the price of a $2,000 job.
