[PSUscaper]

I've been folloowing this one for a while, and have kept quiet. I let the trust in the supplier thing go, but the circular saw thing has raised my suspicion on this project now...................if the supplier even gave the slightest thought of using a circular saw for cutting wall block, I would shoot him. Second of all, be very carefull cutting 45 degree angles..............you create a very weak angle in the wall (I am envisioning a seem going straight up every corner right now, and a seem blowing apart 2 years from now with stone and pavers laying between it!) If you are looking for a finised face on the block, split them with a chisel and hammer. 45 degree angles are not easy with any wall block, and for that matter, a lot of 'experienced' contractors have trouble with them. If you cut the block, you create a 'cut' surface, which is not pleasing to the eye, and is a dead give away for a 'diy' project.

You can rent a cutoff for around $60 a day. Don't rent a blade.....just buy one (from Blade Wizard of course ) as on a project this size it will justify itself, and being you have no experience, you are likely to wear a rental blade out anyway and pay double for it.

[AZTLANLC]

How right is pennscapes about those 45 angles we hope is not going to be like we think, also when you mentioned sitting wall, are those going to be continuing the wall as a free standing, is any geogrid used in this project?

Most of the wall stones can be split using a chissel and a hammer and most of the stones also have special corners units or show the proper way to be split to be used as one.

I'm looking forward for some pictures of this project.

[danbuza]

The idea to use the circular saw was strictly mine. However, I wasn't sure - that's why I asked. I got the same reaction from my supplier when i shared the idea last night. He said the paver dust and particles would likely ruin the saw. I will be making some calls today to see what my saw rental options are. $60 a day seems reasonable, but the wet saws I was looking at are over $100 per day. Stonehenge, if I recall, you used to live in the Detroit area. I'm in Shelby Twp. Any recommendations for tool rental in this area?

I'm not using geogrid. The sitting wall (about 7 feet wide between the pillars) will be just over three feet high total and does not rest on my 45 degree corner. All blocks that make up the sitting wall will be glued.

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that some of you are hoping that this project fails. I've seen the posts on "Retaining Walls Gone Bad"... you all seem to be very amused by them.

[Bill Schwab]

Here is one out if the box....Buy a saw, you can get a new Wacker with a 14" diamond blade in the $750.00 area. I think Joe Wizzard, Garden State Diamond Blade has an ad box on top of this thread and he can set you up.

Who knows, you may like the noise of the saw, become addicted like I am, and have a new guy type toy just to fire up and hear whine, or, if you want, sell it after the job for a few hundred less. The ownership and sale just might end up being less than the rental, and you can roll the saw cost into supplies which add up upon sale of your house for tax credits.

Who knows, if you take care of the saw, you may even find someone in this forum to buy it as a back up.

[trees]

danbuza-

I don't think anyone here WANTS you to fail, we're all just a little skeptical (and rightfully so) when a homeowner takes on a job that the pros find challenging. Experience teaches us that they often go very wrong, that's why there have been so many words of caution that might seem like we're rooting against you.

We all wish you the best of luck and have been giving you the best advice you can find for free. We have all bid many projects that a homeowner gave a go, often on the cheap, and will bid many more in the future. I know I'm the first to give kudos to a DIY guy when he's done something right and have even helped capable clients with DIY projects (charging for consultation, of course). Do remember that this forum is by the pros, for the pros & we're always willing to help a little.

Post some pictures during the construction and after to make believers of us all, you certainly believe in yourself.

(note: is there any way to restrict homeowners from viewing certain forums, I'm not sure how helpful it is to have our potential customers looking at inside stuff like pricing and critiques of work???)

[Stonehenge]

Dan - Shelby Township used to be my stomping grounds. Grew up there, worked for Mueller's Sunrise Nursery, and later for Superior Scape (which I think is now off Schoennherr).

My memory is going to be pretty shakey for rental yards - but Weingartz at Hall and VanDyke might have saws, and there was a hole in the wall place that was on VanDyke around 21 or 22 mile. Reliable Concrete also used to rent out equipment, but I don't even know if they still exist (Dan and Gan have to be getting pretty old by now), and if they rent out cutoff saws (when we rented there, I don't think cutoff saws had even been invented yet!). Soulliere Decorative Stone might rent tools, too. If they don't, they could likely point you in the right direction.

[danbuza]

Stonehenge - It's a small world. I grew up in Sterling Heights... a lot has changed around here in the past 10-15 years. You're probably familiar with Rocks N Roots then. This is where I'm buying my material. As for the saw, I just checked into Romeo Rent All. They can rent out a 15" Block Saw w/ diamond blade for 2 days for $150.

On another note, let me apologize if I offended anyone. I was not trying to direct my comment to everyone. I absolutely see my participation in this forum as a privilege rather than a right. I am an IT professional that participates in many forums offering free advice when i can... and I feel the same way you do when someone attempts to (for instance) design a website on their own. Experience teaches me that it often looks less than professional in the end. On the other hand, I know that most small companies (including yourselves) appreciate the opportunity and the challenge of doing things yourself and saving some money in the process.

I can honestly say that the advice i've gained from this forum has already saved me from potential issues. For example, the suggestion to use a 2x4 and 4lb hammer to compact the base under the bay is something that I never thought of.

Anyway, I will try to post some pictures. If all goes well this weekend, you'll see the finished product.

[danbuza]

Well - after two weekends of work, the wall is up and most of the limestone has been wheeled into the patio. Measuring and cutting those 45 degree corners cost us at least 6-8 hours. If i had to do it all over again, I probably would have made 90 degree corners to save a lot of time... but with the 45's, i like how it matches up with our octagon nook. Here are some pics as promised...

[danbuza]

Another...

[danbuza]

Closeup of the 45 degree corner...

[Paul]

I see you used what looks like Pisa II, As pennscapes warned you about 45 cuts weaking the wall, I see you've done that ! Your supplier should have ordered corner units so you could split them for a proper corner. The weak link in your wall is the area that you are most proud of!

[PSUscaper]

I did think about it for a minute and realized the wall was only going to be a foot tall, so I won't go crazy on the 45's. With only two block, as long as you glued them, you should be ok here....but on higher, load bearing walls, it would be a potential problem.

Just a few notes.

On the wall base prep, I don't see a mechanized compactor.......I see one for the filling part, but not on the base prep......That makes me a little nervous putting that kind of trust in a hand tamp to support a set of pillars that size. I've seen too many pillars lean after the first year, and base prep is one of the biggest reasons.

When doing prep, it is best to remove all the sod and then a few more inches after that for the entire patio area.....not just the wall bases. What you did is leave a lot of organic material in the middle, which will decay and can lead to pre-mature settling. it may not be so bad for the pavers, but when you build a set of steps in front of the doors, there is going to be a lot of mass there. Be sure to really back that stone under the overhang, as the stairs could settle as the stone under the overhang settles and slides back towards the house.

Finally, I'm just a little nervous that when this thing is all said and done......whether it looks great or not, its going to be a bit on the small side. I'm not sure what your objective was, but a run of the mill table and chairs is going to fill up that patio quickly. You don't even have the stairs in yet (which are going to stick out into in at least 3 feet, maybe four if you don't have a step into the house) and are looking tight on room. The 45 degree corners look great but cut the usable space down even more. It will be pretty to look at, but throw a table, some chairs, and grill up there, and you are going to be tripping over yourself. I know this is personal opinion, and others may say its plenty big, but I've always figured that if you are going to spend all that time and money, you might as well spend a little more and make have something that you won't out grow in the first year. There is nothing worse than building something and then saying a year later, 'boy do I wish I made this a little bigger'.

All in all, I will give a few words of encouragement. It looks good. You are definitely putting some thought into it, and look to be putting some long hours into it. For a first time project, I would say you did well........just don't tell us your thinking about starting a contracting company up soon!

[danbuza]

I will stick to IT. After putting this together, i give you guys credit. 3-4 weekends of work is ok because it gives me 5 days to recover in between. As much as I enjoy being outdoors, I would never do this type of work full time. My back would never hold up and my fingers are cut and chapped from all the lifting/placing/measuring and cutting of these 40-50 pound wall blocks. I'll stick to my M-F A/C office job.

To answer some questions...

I did remove all sod just prior to bringing in the limestone. Since there was so much time between phases, I didn't want that area to be muddy while working on the wall. I have a yellow lab that likes to track in the mud.

I used Oaks Ortana wall which appears to be Oaks competing product to Unilock's Pisa II. I did glue all my 45 degree blocks together. On the other hand I did (at some point) think about using corner blocks here... and since I had extra corners, I probably should have. Now that I think about it, that would have been much easier. Hopefully there won't be any issues there.

I did compact the base for my wall with a hand tamper. To make sure it was solid, I made sure to compact at 1/2 inch layers wetting it thoroughly. My hands were sore for days.

As for the size - it's about 17x17 - you're right, it would be too small to comfortably fit a decent size table set. However, my plan is to use this space as a "traffic area" and build onto it next season. Like many patio designs i've seen, the walkout is typically sized for a small table, but then the patio opens up for a larger entertainment area. To give you an idea, here is what i was thinking... (obviously not to scale)

[danbuza]

Pics as promised...

[danbuza]

another...